Motorsports Thread

[Drago]

All very well being fast in the best car, but it takes way more skill to get a good tune out of a middling one. Just look at Seb - brilliant at Red Bull, and then it all went downhill from there. Damon Hill - fine while in a Williams, but other cars showed he was mediocre at best. Likewise with Jacques ViVilleneuve.

I have the advantage of not being a fan of any driver or team, preferring the sport for its spectacle as a whole, so I never get hung up about where drivers came from or how many years they did on motorised skateboards before their breakthough - I prefer to watch the race and see the results, and what happened last year or 5 years ago is of little relevance when one driver smashes his way to a dominating victory.

I think Verstappen's performance yesterday alone shows that regardless of where he did or didn't pay his dues he is at the present time in a class of one. There are drivers out there who doggedly went through the lower forumae one at a time who didn't get remotely close to him yesterday, so having done so seems in no way a guarantee of talent or ability. Only 0.34% of Grand Prix have ever been won from 9th, and even fewer so dominantly. Even Perez when interviewed post race by the BBC admitted Max was simply a much faster driver on the day - no excuses about machinery or strategy from Perez himself, just the unvarnished reality from a man who had the same car the same opportunities to set it up and the same input on tyre choice (he said he chose M to start to maximise his chance of stating ahead after the start, and Red Bull Spice signed off on his decision.)

Mind you, I suspect Max is not a scintilling conversationalist so you wouldn't invite him to your dinner party. I believe Alonso would be a much cheekier and more entertaining dinner companion.

Hill did relatively little in the lower formulae on four wheels and his significant experience was as a test driver. In his case it showed, his lack of overtaking prowess was marked when the fastest car wasn't enough on its own to put him out front - not something Verstappen struggled with yesterday. Hill could handle a car well, but he wasnt all that as an actual racer.

Useless fact - my Dad knew Graham Hill moderately well through my Grandad, who was works manager for Lancia and who got to meet many of the beautiful people of the Day.

Very few people seriously thought Perez's talk of title contention was realistic - although some on here seem to have believed it - and yesterday's display underlined that quite starkly.

But how long can Verstappen keep that form? This season? Next? 4 more? Schumacher and Hamilton both had long stints at championship contending form, but the norm is rather less than that. Who knows? Put Norris or maybe Russell in some decent machinery and things at the top will be very different I'm sure, and that's something I'd very much like to see. Guinness and Doritos at the ready.

 

[Reynard]

I have the advantage of not being a fan of any driver or team, preferring the sport for its spectacle as a whole, so I never get hung up about where drivers came from or how many years they did on motorised skateboards before their breakthough - I prefer to watch the race and see the results, and what happened last year or 5 years ago is of little relevance when one driver smashes his way to a dominating victory.

If there's one thing I've learned in some 40 years of watching Motorsport, it's that every dog has its day. My driver fandom is largely outside F1 these days (Dan Cammish, Sam Bird), but I'm a big student of the sport's history, a nerd's nerd.

I think Verstappen's performance yesterday alone shows that regardless of where he did or didn't pay his dues he is at the present time in a class of one. There are drivers out there who doggedly went through the lower forumae one at a time who didn't get remotely close to him yesterday, so having done so seems in no way a guarantee of talent or ability. Only 0.34% of Grand Prix have ever been won from 9th, and even fewer so dominantly. Even Perez when interviewed post race by the BBC admitted Max was simply a much faster driver on the day - no excuses about machinery or strategy from Perez himself, just the unvarnished reality from a man who had the same car the same opportunities to set it up and the same input on tyre choice (he said he chose M to start to maximise his chance of stating ahead after the start, and Red Bull Spice signed off on his decision.)

Part of the issue here is that no one seems to want to stick their elbows out - it's like they're afraid. I don't quite get the superlatives when the proverbial Red Sea parts in front of him. It's being handed to Max on a platter. Because really, if someone wanted to make it difficult, all they needed to do was to plant their car in the middle of the road. Enrique Bernoldi used to be a good exponent of that, much to the ire of his competitors. But if it's for position...

Mind you, I suspect Max is not a scintilling conversationalist so you wouldn't invite him to your dinner party. I believe Alonso would be a much cheekier and more entertaining dinner companion.

Of the current lot, I'd much rather have Lando Norris. Max comes across as someone with the manners of a gorilla shoved into a dinner suit. If I could choose any driver to come to my dinner party, it would be Derek Warwick and Brian Henton. I'd love to get a few beers into those two, then just sit back and listen.

Hill did relatively little in the lower formulae on four wheels and his significant experience was as a test driver. In his case it showed, his lack of overtaking prowess was marked when the fastest car wasn't enough on its own to put him out front - not something Verstappen struggled with yesterday. Hill could handle a car well, but he wasnt all that as an actual racer.

In lower formulae, Damon was typically slower than his team mate whenever he had one. Mediocre is all he ever was, be it testing or racing - the timing sheets (and I have plenty of them in my archive) don't lie. Spent a lot of time scratching around at the back in F3 and F3000.

Useless fact - my Dad knew Graham Hill moderately well through my Grandad, who was works manager for Lancia and who got to meet many of the beautiful people of the Day.

I once spent a very interesting afternoon in the company of John Barnard. And got to pick his brain. Out of all the people I've met / got to know through motorsport, that's definitely one of the highlights.

Very few people seriously thought Perez's talk of title contention was realistic - although some on here seem to have believed it - and yesterday's display underlined that quite starkly.

It's only one race though. And in motor racing, anything can happen - and invariably does. In 1982, no one would have pegged Keke Rosberg to be World Champion at the end of the year in the Cosworth-powered Williams. But Ferrari were the architects of their own downfall (Villeneuve getting killed at Zolder, then Pironi busting his legs at Hockenheim), and Renault had shocking reliability issues, and Rosberg became the first driver since Mike Hawthorn to become World Champion having won only a single GP in that season.

But how long can Verstappen keep that form? This season? Next? 4 more? Schumacher and Hamilton both had long stints at championship contending form, but the norm is rather less than that. Who knows? Put Norris or maybe Russell in some decent machinery and things at the top will be very different I'm sure, and that's something I'd very much like to see. Guinness and Doritos at the ready.

As soon as RB put out a less dominant car, he'll be back in the pack with some of that gilding well and truly rubbed off, I reckon. Being fast out front (or when the Red Sea parts) is one thing, having to scratch around among other cars is a completely different skillset. As I've mentioned upthread, a dominant car can flatter a driver perhaps a bit too much. I'll only pass judgement on Max when he's actually proved he can race.

Someone like Lando Norris had a good grounding in Ginetta Juniors and Formula Ford on the TOCA package. So did Oscar Piastri for that matter. If you look at the drivers that's produced, you know you get really good racers, regardless of where they end up, whether it's F1 (Norris), BTCC (Ricky Collard, Dan Cammish) or Porsche Supercup (Harry King) etc.

 

[Drago]

Oh aye, when everyone else catches up he'll he having elbows out along with everyone else. That's the way of motorsport.

Yet when that happens 8 out of 10 races he'll still out perform his team mate, and 2 out of 10 he'll out perform the cars own abilities and put in a performance out of all proportion with the cars place in the pecking order. Things will indeed be different, but he'll still be head and shoulders above those around him in the pack. People have very short memories if they can't remember him doing just that from moment he first arrived at Torro Rosso.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

As Christian Horner is at pains to put out, each driver gets equal treatment, (but just like communism some drivers are more equal than others), which is why other drivers have had difficulty in keeping up with him, if he wants the car to do X, RB will make the car do X so it suits his style, his teammate will then have to learn how to drive the car with it doing X.

Still believe it's why Ricciardo left he knew that there was no chance of him having a chance at the championship whilst at RB.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

As Christian Horner is at pains to put out, each driver gets equal treatment, (but just like communism some drivers are more equal than others), which is why other drivers have had difficulty in keeping up with him, if he wants the car to do X, RB will make the car do X so it suits his style, his teammate will then have to learn how to drive the car with it doing X.

Still believe it's why Ricciardo left he knew that there was no chance of him having a chance at the championship whilst at RB.

How much did his chances improve by leaving?

 

[icowden]

But how long can Verstappen keep that form? This season? Next? 4 more? Schumacher and Hamilton both had long stints at championship contending form, but the norm is rather less than that.

It's not just the form though. The chances are that the Red Bull will be dominant until the next major rule change (?2026?). By that point I would imagine Hamilton will have hung up his racing gloves and we might see Russell pushing for a WDC.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

It's not just the form though. The chances are that the Red Bull will be dominant until the next major rule change (?2026?). By that point I would imagine Hamilton will have hung up his racing gloves and we might see Russell pushing for a WDC.

Or, AM, Merc, Ferrari have enough photographs of what RB are actually doing & manage to copy it, they are currently so dominant it has all the hallmarks of a Toyota turbo job, one that cannot be seen, it falls inside all the rules for static testing & it's not until it's under load or in play that it actually reveals what it is doing.

 

[icowden]

Or, AM, Merc, Ferrari have enough photographs of what RB are actually doing & manage to copy it, they are currently so dominant it has all the hallmarks of a Toyota turbo job, one that cannot be seen, it falls inside all the rules for static testing & it's not until it's under load or in play that it actually reveals what it is doing.

Third option - they find out what is doing and it turns out to be against the rules... !

 

[Deleted member 26715]

Third option - they find out what is doing and it turns out to be against the rules... !

Against is a harsh word, I'm sure they will use the word spirit

 

[Reynard]

As Christian Horner is at pains to put out, each driver gets equal treatment, (but just like communism some drivers are more equal than others), which is why other drivers have had difficulty in keeping up with him, if he wants the car to do X, RB will make the car do X so it suits his style, his teammate will then have to learn how to drive the car with it doing X.

Still believe it's why Ricciardo left he knew that there was no chance of him having a chance at the championship whilst at RB.

As has always been the case. Schumacher at Ferrari, Senna at Lotus, and then, later, to some extent at Williams. These drivers get the right red carpet treatment, a combination of money from their backers and their own egotistical behaviour. They don't care who they sh*t on to get what they want, and because they are the golden boys, no one dares say no to them.

The bottom line is that really, they're not as good as people make them out to be, and they're afraid of competition - so it's rigged that they don't get that competition, to make them continue to look good. Both Senna and Schumacher had clauses in their contracts to make sure that their team mates were decidedly inferior. Of if they won't that they had to "toe the party line".

So a lot of it is actually an act. Did you guys know that Senna refused to drive in the Formula Ford Festival so that he wouldn't lose his unbeaten record that season. And this is when the Festival was the effective world championship / world cup of FF1600.

 

[Jody]

This popped up on my feed the other day. Apparently Ayrton was looking into monetising his name a little and had a tie up with Pace on his MTB project

 

[Drago]

Imola grand prix this weekend, but will it happen? Italy is suffering g deluge and floods all over thenplade, including parts of the circuit. F1 perso Nelson have been anned from accessing any part or the circuit for over a day now, and if things don't drastically improve quickly I suspect the race may be postponed or even cancelled.

 

[icowden]

Imola grand prix this weekend, but will it happen? Italy is suffering g deluge and floods all over thenplade, including parts of the circuit. F1 perso Nelson have been anned from accessing any part or the circuit for over a day now, and if things don't drastically improve quickly I suspect the race may be postponed or even cancelled.

This weekend will instead be the Imola boat race... !

 

[icowden]

This weekend will instead be the Imola boat race... !

Race cancelled. Monaco snoozefest next.

 

[Deleted member 1258]