The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[srw]

Although I respect your views @Justinslow, I post these videos to show that cycling is not in the least bit dangerous comparatively speaking.

To be fair, they do nothing of the sort. They are anecdote.

Of course this sort of anecdote is far more common, even on the mean streets of the UK, than any other sort of anecdote.

Is it time for my favourite article again?

 

[Justinslow]

Why we love the Netherlands, this is how cycling should be, none of the namby pamby health and safety, just folks going about there everyday lives enabled and enhanced by a mode of transport that is clearly shown to pose no danger. Would I let a child of mine do the things the children on the video are doing? Of course! What fun, I did this and more on my bike when I was a youngster as did all my friends. We fell off occasionally, usually to much laughter, I don't remember anyone suffering a head injury.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4jBpdTicRI

Although I respect your views @Justinslow, I post these videos to show that cycling is not in the least bit dangerous comparatively speaking. I have not yet received an answer from any pro helmet wearers as to why the Dutch are able to ride in huge numbers, in all weathers without helmets and survive very well. Before you say it is because it is safer in Holland, most bicycle accidents in this country do not involve a third party.
Mad, bad parents

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfLJ876lXsQ

Great post, thanks for talking to me like a sensible adult.

 

[gavroche]

Well done Totallyfixed, a very sensible post that makes a mockery of the UK's obsession that a helmet is indispensable when riding a bike .

 

[totallyfixed]

Thanks, I am not posting up these videos that have been culled from YouTube just to show another way of life, I am doing so because we have lived and breathed with our friends in the Netherlands what you see on those videos. A couple of weeks ago we were with friends in Leeuwarden [Friesland], they have young children and we went with them to their primary school in the morning. What a revelation! It was a big school with over 200 children spread out through several buildings on a normal residential street. Everyone either walked or cycled to get there, I only saw one car and was told that was unusual in itself. The net effect of this is that there is less traffic for everyone to negotiate in the morning "rush" hour.
In Nijmegen we spent the weekend with more friends, the husband met us at the station from where we walked a short distance to an underground bike park and hired bikes for less than 2 euros per day, from there it was a pleasant 15 min ride to their house. Their 3 year old daughter rode her own bike the mile or so to her Christmas activity that evening in the pouring rain without a murmur of protest. We also spent a full day shopping and exploring Nijmegen on the bikes, just like everyone else really.
Dr_pink on an unaccustomed bike with our friend.

 

[Justinslow]

Thanks, I am not posting up these videos that have been culled from YouTube just to show another way of life, I am doing so because we have lived and breathed with our friends in the Netherlands what you see on those videos. A couple of weeks ago we were with friends in Leeuwarden [Friesland], they have young children and we went with them to their primary school in the morning. What a revelation! It was a big school with over 200 children spread out through several buildings on a normal residential street. Everyone either walked or cycled to get there, I only saw one car and was told that was unusual in itself. The net effect of this is that there is less traffic for everyone to negotiate in the morning "rush" hour.
In Nijmegen we spent the weekend with more friends, the husband met us at the station from where we walked a short distance to an underground bike park and hired bikes for less than 2 euros per day, from there it was a pleasant 15 min ride to their house. Their 3 year old daughter rode her own bike the mile or so to her Christmas activity that evening in the pouring rain without a murmur of protest. We also spent a full day shopping and exploring Nijmegen on the bikes, just like everyone else really.
Dr_pink on an unaccustomed bike with our friend.

Sounds great, unfortunately not really like the UK though, looks like in this country we have a lot of work to do to get it to that stage! You would hope the UK and Holland would be sharing ideas about these things, I wonder if anybody in government is doing so?

 

[martint235]

Sounds great, unfortunately not really like the UK though, looks like in this country we have a lot of work to do to get it to that stage! You would hope the UK and Holland would be sharing ideas about these things, I wonder if anybody in government is doing so?

We do if we want that infrastructure. However Dutch tarmac is just as hard as ours but they don't see the need to promote helmet wearing.

 

[mjr]

You would hope the UK and Holland would be sharing ideas about these things, I wonder if anybody in government is doing so?

Not so much. I think they find the rather interventionist and rule-driven Netherlands approach too off-putting, so the currently fashionable place to look is Denmark:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFvw0_Znauc


However, today I had a left-turning coach give way to me as I went straight on along a cycle track... I really don't understand why that seems to happen here more readily than in the rest of England (but we have visitors motoring around too, so you can't rely on it!). The fens were drained by the Dutch, but they're long gone... oh and helmet-wearing is rather rare here, especially outside of club riders. I feel it's become even rarer since the last influx from Europe.

 

[Justinslow]

We do if we want that infrastructure. However Dutch tarmac is just as hard as ours but they don't see the need to promote helmet wearing.

Well they wouldn't if it's so "safe" would they?
What would you say about cycling in Indian or Vietnamese cities just out of curiosity?

 

[MontyVeda]

Yes but nobody in this country seems to be making decisions.

Anybody with any authority is what I meant, how long will carry on in limbo land?

Are you suggesting that 'someone in authority' needs to make a decision regarding cycling helmets? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to fathom what you're getting at.

 

[martint235]

Well they wouldn't if it's so "safe" would they?
What would you say about cycling in Indian or Vietnamese cities just out of curiosity?

I'd say that a cycling helmet would be just as useful there as here.

 

[totallyfixed]

The UK is a car-centric society for all kind of reasons, first and foremost [my opinion] is the ingrained belief that we know better, after all at one time we ruled a fair chunk of the world. So, we have decided [along with our "special friends" in the USA] that cars are the future, the government has screwed our society to the point where public transport is more expensive than driving a car and utility cycling is considered a dangerous, niche activity. It is in the interest of some very big companies and organisations to promote this image, cycling helmets have a huge profit margin. We now have an obese and consequently diabetic population.
Many government officials have visited the Netherlands [including Boris J], with very few exceptions the message they have brought back is that it wouldn't work here. Of course it would, the Netherlands was not that different to us in the 50's and 60's, then this happened:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

Listen to the comment at the very end.
Please bear with me and watch this one too featuring Chris Boardman

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq28fU2AuMU

The Dutch went one way, we went another. It could be argued that we are not a very demonstrable people and compared with my European and Antipodean friends I think this is true. Politically we are also weak and very short sighted.
Climbs down off soap box.

 

[classic33]

Exactly, or a cracked skull, which is why I and many others wear a helmet.

I went once three days after to the doctors with a sore head. Admitted to a ward via the local A&E with multiple(13 clearly visible) cracks to the skull and not permitted to fall asleep, some at the side of the bed to make certain I didn't.
This head impact has happened many times over the years, never with the same end result.

What speed would the head be travelling, in a straight "logfall" by the time it reached the floor? Height is 5'10", floor is solid marble, what injuries would you expect from the impact?

 

[RichardB]

Thanks for posting these videos. My wife and I did a cycling tour of Gelderland in the 90s and we both say it was one of the best holidays we ever had. Those clips just make me yearn to be back. What a lovely, rational way of thinking, and what a lovely, rational machine the bicycle is. We both wore helmets throughout the trip (her because she was new to cycling and me to set a good example) and got a few weird looks. I have worn a helmet ever since, on the basis of 'it can't do any harm and may do some good' but this thread has set me thinking. Thanks to everyone who has contributed above for some very thoughtful and intelligent arguments - personality clashes notwithstanding. It's been an education.

 

[ufkacbln]

Well they wouldn't if it's so "safe" would they?
What would you say about cycling in Indian or Vietnamese cities just out of curiosity?

Completely different politics

Some countries are banning or discouraging many traditional cycling activities (such as Rickshaws) as the use of bikes is considered to show "third world values" and replacing them with taxis

 

[ufkacbln]

Yes but what about all the variables Inbetween ranging from a "bump on the head" to weeks/months of recuperation due to the injuries, both people may not have died but they may have very different outcomes.

What about the pedestrian in the same situation?

Should they also be taking similar steps to protect themselves?