The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[Kumquat]

But I do make him wear a helmet, it even has a flashing red light on the back

Out of interest, at what stage will you allow him to stop wearing a helmet? Clearly 5 is a tad young yet, but it has to become his decision some time

My parents never wore a helmet, but forced me and my siblings to until we left home because "children must wear helmets". The obvious consequence of this was that we thought helmets were "for babies" (not helped by the fact that I had a small head and still fit my babyish design one until I was a teenager, and my parents wouldn't buy me a new one! ) and in teenage rebellion they were instantly removed once out of sight, although the particular road near us was very dangerous.

Had we been allowed to choose whether to wear one on safe paths when we were clearly not going to spontaneously fall off, we might have not minded about wearing one on that dangerous road.

 

[benb]

Maybe I'm just lucky then as I'm not Making this stuff up (or unlucky depending on your point of view).

The point is that the fact that you know a handful people who have hit their head when cycling tells you, and us, nothing about how common an event that is. To work that out we need to look at large datasets to remove, as much as possible, confounding variables, confirmation bias, clusters, etc.

 

[Justinslow]

The point is that the fact that you know a handful people who have hit their head when cycling tells you, and us, nothing about how common an event that is. To work that out we need to look at large datasets to remove, as much as possible, confounding variables, confirmation bias, clusters, etc.

Ok, tell me this, how and who would log an incident for "evidence" purpose whereby someone has had a cycle accident and hit their head and because the helmet did a great job didn't require hospitalisation. How would this actually be recorded?

Indeed how is this recorded in hospital - cycle crash rider hits head, helmet prevents major injury? Tick a box or Nothing? It doesn't get logged as evidence?
The two guys I mentioned - would it have been logged that they had major head impacts and the helmet probably helped prevent major injury? Or because nobody really knows whether it did or didn't help - is just "missed"?

Are we actually recording instances for evidence purposes where helmets have helped?

 

[benb]

Ok, tell me this, how and who would log an incident for "evidence" purpose whereby someone has had a cycle accident and hit their head and because the helmet did a great job didn't require hospitalisation. How would this actually be recorded?

Indeed how is this recorded in hospital - cycle crash rider hits head, helmet prevents major injury? Tick a box or Nothing? It doesn't get logged as evidence?
The two guys I mentioned - would it have been logged that they had major head impacts and the helmet probably helped prevent major injury? Or because nobody really knows whether it did or didn't help - is just "missed"?

Are we actually recording instances for evidence purposes where helmets have helped?

No, those wouldn't be logged, if no medical assistance was required, and it's obviously impossible to state upon medical treatment whether a helmet helped in that specific situation or not.

So there are 2 things we can do:
1. Find a place where there was a significant change in the rate of helmet wearing, and compare the head injury rate before and after that point. And/or,
2. Measure the helmet wearing rate amongst cyclists, and compare it to the rate of head injuries for helmeted/non-helmeted riders. If, say, 40% of cyclists wore a helmet, and 40% of head injuries were from riders who had been wearing helmets, you would know, assuming you have corrected for confounding variables, that helmets do not affect head injury rates.

#2 is more difficult to do, as you need to accurately record more information, but it has been done.
So, would you like to guess what the evidence shows when we carry out a study like in #1 or #2?

 

[martint235]

Ok, tell me this, how and who would log an incident for "evidence" purpose whereby someone has had a cycle accident and hit their head and because the helmet did a great job didn't require hospitalisation. How would this actually be recorded?

Indeed how is this recorded in hospital - cycle crash rider hits head, helmet prevents major injury? Tick a box or Nothing? It doesn't get logged as evidence?
The two guys I mentioned - would it have been logged that they had major head impacts and the helmet probably helped prevent major injury? Or because nobody really knows whether it did or didn't help - is just "missed"?

Are we actually recording instances for evidence purposes where helmets have helped?

How can you possibly know that the helmet prevented major injury? As stated many times, there is no evidence around the effectiveness of helmets in a given situation so unless you go back and do the crash again with no helmet, you have no idea whether or not the helmet prevented major injury: the rider may have just received a bump on the head.

 

[Mugshot]

So, would you like to guess what the evidence shows when we carry out a study like in #1 or #2?

Is the answer hi-viz?

 

[benb]

Is the answer hi-viz?

Only if the question is "Name something that is completely irrelevant to collision and injury rates."

 

[Justinslow]

How can you possibly know that the helmet prevented major injury? As stated many times, there is no evidence around the effectiveness of helmets in a given situation so unless you go back and do the crash again with no helmet, you have no idea whether or not the helmet prevented major injury: the rider may have just received a bump on the head.

Exactly, or a cracked skull, which is why I and many others wear a helmet.

 

[Justinslow]

Is the answer hi-viz?

Zzzzzzzzzz
If you are going to troll regarding another thread at least realise that at no point did I bring "hi viz" into the discussion, I don't wear hi viz nor do I think everybody else should although they can if they want to. I personally wear bright cycling jerseys.

 

[martint235]

Exactly, or a cracked skull, which is why I and many others wear a helmet.

Why? What good will a helmet do? Anything other than "my friend was wearing a helmet and didn't die" because that is countered by "I wasn't wearing a helmet and didn't die"?

 

[Justinslow]

Why? What good will a helmet do? Anything other than "my friend was wearing a helmet and didn't die" because that is countered by "I wasn't wearing a helmet and didn't die"?

Yes but what about all the variables Inbetween ranging from a "bump on the head" to weeks/months of recuperation due to the injuries, both people may not have died but they may have very different outcomes.

 

[martint235]

Yes but what about all the variables Inbetween ranging from a "bump on the head" to weeks/months of recuperation due to the injuries, both people may not have died but they may have very different outcomes.

But still there is absolutely nothing to suggest a helmet will help.

Now you can do what you like helmet wise, I just think it would be a much nicer world if decisions could be made on solid information rather than scare tactics perpetuated by the UCI, the media and people saying "my mate would have died if he hadn't been wearing a helmet"

 

[Mugshot]

Zzzzzzzzzz
If you are going to troll regarding another thread at least realise that at no point did I bring "hi viz" into the discussion, I don't wear hi viz nor do I think everybody else should although they can if they want to. I personally wear bright cycling jerseys.

Have you heard of Carly Simon?

 

[Justinslow]

Have you heard of Carly Simon?

You think I'm "vain"?
Youre quite clearly goading.......
Which is fine because people with an open mind see you and your kind for what you are.

 

[MartinQ]

Had we been allowed to choose whether to wear one on safe paths when we were clearly not going to spontaneously fall off, we might have not minded about wearing one on that dangerous road.

My two have had more accidents on "safe" paths than on dangerous roads, but that's kids for you, "oh look, there's something shiny" ...