Are we being forced to go electric?

[FishFright]

You've watched Long Way Up then?

They did well for being prototypes and left a fair amount infrastructure . But on this thread it will be held up as an obvious disaster and proves electric motor bikes will never work either.

 

[CXRAndy]

When a HGV drivers hours are up they have to stop, it’s not always possible to stop at a charge point, sometimes the best option is a lay-by, or at the side of the road on an industrial estate

Well that part of HGV will probably have to change. Dedicated sites so trucks can charge up

They already have, don’t Tesla’s have ludicrous mode! to make it set off like scalded cat

Tesla have gone beyond Ludicrous mode, they have the Plaid model vehicles now. My model S in standard form has over 600bhp, the Plaid are over 1000bhp.

To be honest, 600hp is blooming phenomenal in acceleration, to have Plaid would shave off only 0.7s to 60mph.

 

[Andy in Germany]

I must be missing something. What is the basic problem?

This:

The "rate of acceleration" is just another example of telling people what they want to hear, and in this case, a lot of people are desperate to believe their lifestyle won't need to change.

Focusing on one easy to remember detail that people can easily understand and relate to means they aren't discussing battery life, the amount of energy availible to charge batteries, long term future of some forms of electricity generation, rarity of lithium, environmental damage from Lithium mining, congestion, and other issues that the industry would really rather we didn't look too closely at. This is also why Musk focused on acceleration and automation even when he was presenting the Tesla truck and claiming it could "beat railways economically"; he wanted -desperately wanted- to make sure no-one considered range and payload.

People don't like change, which is fair enough.

Companies want to make a profit, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Unfortunately physics doesn't really care what we do or do not want, and physics hasn't changed.

 

[icowden]

People don't like change, which is fair enough.
Companies want to make a profit, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Unfortunately physics doesn't really care what we do or do not want, and physics hasn't changed.

No. But the amount of research into battery technology *has* changed. Hence there is now rapid research to reduce reliance on rare earth minerals, to improve capacity, improve recharge rates etc. Petrol and ICE has had over a hundred years of research and has improved the way that cars work and the MPG probably doubling MPG on average from the first petrol cars. EV battery tech has had around 10-15 years (yes I know lithium batteries were around before this but the use case was completely different) of research, most of which was by one or two companies. There is now massive amounts of research going on. And not just on the batteries but on the charging methods as well. Solar panels are improving and new techniques being explored to make them far more efficient.

Another way that Physics is being used is that manufacturers haven't been bothered about efficiency unless they are building sports cars. Most ICE cars have terrible aerodynamics. Most EVs are specifically designed to be aerodynamically slippy to increase range. That's just one reason that Tesla have the longest range cars.

So yes, physics hasn't changed. But we can improve cars far beyond what was done with ICE vehicles.

 

[Alex321]

This:



People don't like change, which is fair enough.

Companies want to make a profit, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Unfortunately physics doesn't really care what we do or do not want, and physics hasn't changed.

The physics HAS changed. The physics of electric motors is very different to that of internal combustion engines, with very different efficiency graphs.

 

[icowden]

I think it's Ford* are trialling electric semi's too. IIRC it was on a Veritasium video on YT.
*or GM

It's weird. Just because Tesla have a viable product and EVs are taking off, suddenly other companies go - "we need an electric Semi too". It's almost like they are scared that they are going to lose out to the competition rather than going "it'll never work".

In other local news, that there ULEZ zone would appear to have encouraged Go Ahead to buy 299 new electric busses. Who says that these things can't have an effect?:-

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/07/go-ahead-london-is-adding-299-electric-buses-to-its-fleet-this-year/#:~:text=Clean Transport-,Go-Ahead London Is Adding 299 Electric,To Its Fleet This Year&text=Go-Ahead London is going,in collaboration with BYD UK.

 

[Pale Rider]

Surprising news from Renault/Geely who are investing billions in the UK to produce 'ultra low emission' internal combustion engines.

They must see a future in ICE, even if that may be outside the UK.

It's still not clear to me if our proposed regulations simply ban ICE, or stipulate cars must be zero or close to zero emissions at the tailpipe.

Whatever, there's clearly life in the old spark plugs yet, and we may, in time, see electric cars as just another silly phase we went through.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66172158

 

[Andy in Germany]

No. But the amount of research into battery technology *has* changed. Hence there is now rapid research to reduce reliance on rare earth minerals, to improve capacity, improve recharge rates etc. Petrol and ICE has had over a hundred years of research and has improved the way that cars work and the MPG probably doubling MPG on average from the first petrol cars. EV battery tech has had around 10-15 years (yes I know lithium batteries were around before this but the use case was completely different) of research, most of which was by one or two companies. There is now massive amounts of research going on. And not just on the batteries but on the charging methods as well. Solar panels are improving and new techniques being explored to make them far more efficient.

Another way that Physics is being used is that manufacturers haven't been bothered about efficiency unless they are building sports cars. Most ICE cars have terrible aerodynamics. Most EVs are specifically designed to be aerodynamically slippy to increase range. That's just one reason that Tesla have the longest range cars.

So yes, physics hasn't changed. But we can improve cars far beyond what was done with ICE vehicles.

The physics HAS changed. The physics of electric motors is very different to that of internal combustion engines, with very different efficiency graphs.

Technology has changed; physics hasn't.

I'm talking about the energy return on the energy invested, which is very high for oil, and remains poor for both hydrogen and batteries. Based on my admittedly limited understanding, this means that while it is possible to make individual cars run a very long way on batteries, scaling this up to generate enough power to replace the car and truck fleet is going to be unlikely.

However, what people want to hear is that Technology Will Save Us, and we can keep living the same way by plugging cars into the wall, so of course there will always be someone ready to make money by presenting a comfortable story.

 

[Pale Rider]

what people want to hear is that Technology Will Save Us,

Battery density has not improved one jot since lithium became a thing about 20 years ago.

Any number prototypes and lab bench experiments, but they never see the light of day.

A Merc engineer said a large part of improved range is aerodynamics, which may be why we are seeing the launch of a few medium sized EV estates.

Much denser batteries leading to a smaller pack would be a big help, meaning the EV estate could have almost as much luggage space as an ICE one.

I'm sure the reason why so many EVs are lumpy SUVs is that it's currently very difficult to hide the required tonnage of batteries in a hatchback.

 

[Dadam]

Battery density has not improved one jot since lithium became a thing about 20 years ago.

Source?

A number to the contrary:
https://physicsworld.com/a/lithium-ion-batteries-break-energy-density-record/#:~:text=The technology has greatly advanced,to around 300 Wh/kg.

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...y-no-batteries-are-improving-under-your-nose/

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/1...ell-densities-have-almost-tripled-since-2010/

 

[Alex321]

Battery density has not improved one jot since lithium became a thing about 20 years ago.

Funny, I'd always thought a jot was very small, but that implies it is rather massive.

https://insideevs.com/news/581729/volumetric-energy-density-ev-batteries-growth/

Any number prototypes and lab bench experiments, but they never see the light of day.

A Merc engineer said a large part of improved range is aerodynamics, which may be why we are seeing the launch of a few medium sized EV estates.

More of it it is down to improved batteries and motors than to improved aerodynamics, which had also been researched and improved significantly for ICE vehicles.

I'm sure further aerodynamic improvements have played a part, but not as large a part as technological improvements.

Much denser batteries leading to a smaller pack would be a big help, meaning the EV estate could have almost as much luggage space as an ICE one.

I'm sure the reason why so many EVs are lumpy SUVs is that it's currently very difficult to hide the required tonnage of batteries in a hatchback.

There are EV hatchbacks around. I think the biggest reason for so many SUVs is the price is in the range that those wanting SUVs are more likely to be able to afford.

 

[icowden]

Battery density has not improved one jot since lithium became a thing about 20 years ago.

Yes it's only improved by 220Wh/kh since 1991

The technology has greatly advanced too: since first commercialized by Sony in 1991, the energy density of lithium-ion batteries has increased from 80 Wh/kg to around 300 Wh/kg.

https://physicsworld.com/a/lithium-...logy has greatly advanced,to around 300 Wh/kg.

Much denser batteries leading to a smaller pack would be a big help, meaning the EV estate could have almost as much luggage space as an ICE one.

The EV battery doesn't go in the boot.

I'm sure the reason why so many EVs are lumpy SUVs is that it's currently very difficult to hide the required tonnage of batteries in a hatchback.

They are about 450kg. A model Y battery is about 6ft x 4ft but only 5.5 inches thick. Thus it makes up the floor of the vehicle. Not that hard to hide.

 

[Jameshow]

Funny, I'd always thought a jot was very small, but that implies it is rather massive.

https://insideevs.com/news/581729/volumetric-energy-density-ev-batteries-growth/



More of it it is down to improved batteries and motors than to improved aerodynamics, which had also been researched and improved significantly for ICE vehicles.

I'm sure further aerodynamic improvements have played a part, but not as large a part as technological improvements.



There are EV hatchbacks around. I think the biggest reason for so many SUVs is the price is in the range that those wanting SUVs are more likely to be able to afford.

I doubt many EV are as slippery as the 0.26 cd vauxhall calibra we all wanted in the 1990's!🤣🤣🤣

 

[cougie uk]

Battery density has not improved one jot since lithium became a thing about 20 years ago.

Any number prototypes and lab bench experiments, but they never see the light of day.

A Merc engineer said a large part of improved range is aerodynamics, which may be why we are seeing the launch of a few medium sized EV estates.

Much denser batteries leading to a smaller pack would be a big help, meaning the EV estate could have almost as much luggage space as an ICE one.

I'm sure the reason why so many EVs are lumpy SUVs is that it's currently very difficult to hide the required tonnage of batteries in a hatchback.

I'm starting to think you're just making stuff up for the love of it.

 

[Pale Rider]

I'm starting to think you're just making stuff up for the love of it.

Really?

The density of the much-vaunted Tesla battery is about the same as my 2009 Bosch ebike battery.

I agree there are promising signs, but I have seen these many times before, perhaps EV fans haven't been following the market for long enough.

It's great scientists are trying, and there will be improvements at some point.

Test bench to production can easily take 10 or more years, which won't be much help to me due to Father Time.

I'll believe it when I can buy a 500 mile range EV with a battery the size of a fag packet, but not until then.