Are we being forced to go electric?
- Thread starter gavroche
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@Pale Rider
I'm not moving any goalposts. The assertion was basically that batteries haven't improved. But they have hugely, in all those factors but in different proportions. Using Tesla batteries as the poster boy for energy density is forgiveable as they're usually held up as such in other EV aspects but because of their specific choice to go with commodity cells it isn't an accurate reflection of the state of battery tech as a whole which was the main topic of this sub-thread
I'm not moving any goalposts. The assertion was basically that batteries haven't improved. But they have hugely, in all those factors but in different proportions. Using Tesla batteries as the poster boy for energy density is forgiveable as they're usually held up as such in other EV aspects but because of their specific choice to go with commodity cells it isn't an accurate reflection of the state of battery tech as a whole which was the main topic of this sub-thread
Pale Rider
Legendary Member
@Dadam
Tesla is an excellent example because they are rightly regarded as among the best EVs for range.
But leave them aside, every other EV uses substantially the same density, which as I think we are finally agreed on hasn't changed much in 15 years.
To repeat, I don't doubt there are many exciting developments on test benches, in labs, and even in some prototypes.
But experience shows these rarely see the light of day.
You can only make the claim of vastly improved density when a car with such cells is available to buy in your local EV showroom.
The best guess has to be that day is years in the future.
Tesla is an excellent example because they are rightly regarded as among the best EVs for range.
But leave them aside, every other EV uses substantially the same density, which as I think we are finally agreed on hasn't changed much in 15 years.
To repeat, I don't doubt there are many exciting developments on test benches, in labs, and even in some prototypes.
But experience shows these rarely see the light of day.
You can only make the claim of vastly improved density when a car with such cells is available to buy in your local EV showroom.
The best guess has to be that day is years in the future.
No. You can only make the claim of vastly improved density when a working model of a battery with vastly improved density has been proven. Just because you can't buy it in the shops doesn't somehow invalidate its existence.
Thanks mystic meg. Any new battery tech is going to be years in the future before it reaches consumers even if it were available now. That's just development cycle for you.
Pale Rider
Legendary Member
New tech which cannot be bought is irrelevant to the prospective EV buyer, which is what this thread is all about.
So you agree with Meg, 'new battery tech is going to be years in the future before it reaches consumers'.
At last, you've finally grasped we are largely stuck with existing density for a long time.
You are lacking definition. Yes, of course we are measuring years. I would suspect that in 5 years time we will be seeing cars with much bigger ranges, much lighter batteries and higher battery density. 5 years is not a long time in terms of EV development from working prototype to application.
Pale Rider
Legendary Member
Nothing's happened in 15 years, so if past performance is any guide to the future...
Bound to happen sometime, I suppose.
Jameshow
Veteran
Unless the battery chemistry changes you won't get massive improvement.
Lead acid is still lead acid
Alkaline is still alkaline
Nicad us still nicad
Lithium is still lithium...
It will take a new chemistry to really improve battery tech.
Tesla are still using generic Panasonic cells found in cordless drills!
Yep. That's why research is now going on to do this.
https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-invent-a-new-type-of-battery-the-oxygen-ion-battery/
https://www.saft.com/media-resources/our-stories/three-battery-technologies-could-power-future/
https://www.gray.com/insights/5-new-battery-technologies-that-will-change-the-future/
etc
Gillstay
Veteran
Alex321
Guru
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- South Wales
Same source I gave before
https://insideevs.com/news/581729/volumetric-energy-density-ev-batteries-growth/
Mine is specifically EV battery packs, while I'm not sure yours is. And also the source I was looking at was giving Wh per Litre, rather than per Kg, based on the fact that space is at least as important as weight in an EV.
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
And?
For a start, electric bike batteries have very different requirements in terms of draw down to EV battery pack, and also things can be done on a small scale which are harder on a large scale. So your e-bike battery is not directly comparable to an EV battery pack.
Secondly, the absolutely correct "rubbish" I was posting was based on Wh per litre, not per Kg. An equally valid way of measuring density, and the space taken by EV battery packs is just as important (if not more so) than the weight.
FishFright
More wheels than sense
Lithium batteries has a whole host of compositions each with differing power delivery, capacity etc. The difference in performance my 'fastish' RC when running a Lithium Ion vs a LIPO is astonishing.
Also see above for the improvements already made.
Chislenko
Veteran
I drove down to Haverfordwest and back yesterday, (from Chester) in a diesel.
I dread to think of the upfront planning I would have had to do to in an EV.
OK Jones, rendezvous at 9.30 for start of journey (do not put your heater on!, don't use your radio or indicators)
Meet at 11.30 for charging.
But sir, this is rural Wales, you will be lucky to find a petrol station let alone a charge point.
Tune in for the next installment.
I dread to think of the upfront planning I would have had to do to in an EV.
OK Jones, rendezvous at 9.30 for start of journey (do not put your heater on!, don't use your radio or indicators)
Meet at 11.30 for charging.
But sir, this is rural Wales, you will be lucky to find a petrol station let alone a charge point.
Tune in for the next installment.
Any mid range EV would get you all the way there and half the way back. You just need to stop at a fast charger somewhere - maybe the instavolt at McDonalds. or withybush, or county hall car park. Or at any of over a dozen charge points on the way back up the A483. Wales has loads of EV chargers and many at 50kwh or above.
Even the Shetlands have EV chargers. They might not have petrol stations but they have electricity.
Wonderful isn't it?!
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