Are we being forced to go electric?

[Gunk]

Well eventually the petrol won't be on sale so all cars will be electric.
Prices will come down.

Just going electric isn't going to mean free cars for everyone though and nor should it.

Walking cycling and public transport should still be the first thought.

I see lots of pedestrians walking down the M40 every day

 

[cougie uk]

I see lots of pedestrians walking down the M40 every day

And I see no cars on the bike path. Weird eh ?

 

[Andy in Germany]

I see lots of pedestrians walking down the M40 every day

If the M40 was built and maintained to the same standard as most bike paths, you'd probably see a lot less cars using it.

 

[classic33]

I live in a town which has 9 bus routes, each of which is serviced about once an hour. Most of the busses do not go anywhere useful. The railway station is a 40 minute walk from where I live. To get there by bus would require a 10 minute walk, then a bus (561) that goes once an hour to the high street, then another bus that goes once an hour (468) or the 555 (once an hour) from the high street.

Paying for the school bus would be pointless, expensive and increase pollution as I would have to drive to Walton Station to drop the kids and all their bags off at a diesel minibus, when the school is only another 10 minutes away. I would never actually be able to go and see my kids in school productions as there are no public busses that go that way unless I paid for a minicab. Cycling to the school is only really viable via a very circuitous route as we are waiting for new infrastructure on that road and my wife doesn't cycle.

Lets compare that with Lambeth:-

Lambeth has 33 bus routes each of which is serviced every 10 to 15 minutes and bus stops are usually no more than 5 minutes walk away. Lambeth has two tube stops, one of which is Waterloo Station which services most of the South and South East and which has regular fast trains to London Bridge to go East. Lambeth has electric bikes, e-scooters, public bikes, and a vast number of taxis.

Your definition of "ample" and mine are very different. There isn't even a direct bus from the train station to the sports centre and swimming pool as the bus company withdrew it - despite it being the most obvious route for a bus.

Is there a reason for the difference between Lambeth and Walton? Well apart from one of the major UK railway stations being in Lambeth, Lambeth has a population of 317,654 and an area of 10.36 square miles. Walton has a population of 22,834 and an area of 6.1 square miles. Population density is 6120 per square mile in walton as opposed to 31,000 per square mile in Lambeth. Could that be a clue as to why you don't need a car in Lambeth but you do in Surrey? It's almost as if areas with relatively low populations have worse transport than those with very high populations...

Similar arguments are heard for owning a motor vehicle. A ten minute walk to a train station is within the reach of most people, not just those with electric vehicles. And is what more people than you realise, are actually doing daily.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Similar arguments are heard for owning a motor vehicle. A ten minute walk to a train station is within the reach of most people, not just those with electric vehicles. And is what more people than you realise, are actually doing daily.

They need to get the laws sorted regarding leccy scooters and such . Those imo are game changers for commuting back and forward on public transport . Fold down and stow away , yes get the same with a bike but these are dead simple and quick to move around on .

 

[Jenkins]

From a couple of months ago...

You've not read the thread ?

Why bother? I picked the first 5 pages, 5 pages in the middle and 5 pages towards the end. They all repeated the same arguments, so I guess the other 278 pages were the same thing.

I'm getting a sense of deja vu all over again after today's posts

 

[SpokeyDokey]

From a couple of months ago...



I'm getting a sense of deja vu all over again after today's posts

It hasn't progressed much especially as the answer is clearly "Yes".

 

[classic33]

They need to get the laws sorted regarding leccy scooters and such . Those imo are game changers for commuting back and forward on public transport . Fold down and stow away , yes get the same with a bike but these are dead simple and quick to move around on .

The laws have already been sorted, it's just that many don't want to bother with the laws for such a small vehicle. Especially when it will cost them even more to use.

 

[Jameshow]

It hasn't progressed much especially as the answer is clearly "Yes".

With a big stick!

 

[Buck]

Fact: current plans are for sales of new combustion engines cars to end in 2030

Fact: ICE cars will be around after this date. We just won’t be able to buy shiny new ones.

Fact: electric cars are currently very expensive as a relatively new technology that hasn’t yet reached true economies of scale and stock not filtering down into the second hand market

Fact: The elected government of the day will legislate to make the cost of ownership higher, nay, prohibitive to a large part of society ergo car ownership will move more to a luxury and perhaps lead to work and leisure being closure to home.

Fact: Public transport is not fit for purpose

Fact: charging networks and infrastructure are still in development and not easy to access or always reliable.

Fact: when a person bickers or trys to get one up on the next, they tend to lose the weight from their argument.

I find elements of this thread interesting and informative and provides different perspectives and counter arguments but the bickering is draining.

/rant

 

[icowden]

Similar arguments are heard for owning a motor vehicle. A ten minute walk to a train station is within the reach of most people, not just those with electric vehicles. And is what more people than you realise, are actually doing daily.

I entirely agree. And much of the town in which I live is in that position. Unfortunately I am right on the outskirts. Sadly since I moved here we have seen a number of bus routes removed and the remaining ones pared down until they are barely useable. And then there is the small detail that a bus fare from Walton to Esher (the next town along) is £4.20 per person or £16.80 for 4 people. An Uber from Walton to Esher is only about £6. And with a car, the journey is about 20p.

Sadly the Government is not interested in public transport and I doubt that it ever will be. The game changers (I hope) will be robotaxis which can ply their trade very very cheaply. Then we might see car ownership reduce.

We got rid of one car after moving to our current address because I started to cycle to the station instead. Cheaper and about as quick.

 

[vickster]

They need to get the laws sorted regarding leccy scooters and such . Those imo are game changers for commuting back and forward on public transport . Fold down and stow away , yes get the same with a bike but these are dead simple and quick to move around on .

Except they’re not allowed on some train lines or tubes because of the potential risk posed by the batteries so you can’t fold down and stow

 

[lazybloke]

No - I meant that for the VAST MAJORITY of people there is no point in owning a car if you live in London.

I don't accept the above; carry on reading.

If you want to spend your life making Socratean arguments and pointing out every possible exception, then go ahead.

Usually we talk about the majority use case not tiny exceptions. Yes, there will be a small number of disabled people - who get exempted from things like ULEZ and have blue badges. Then there are builders and plumbers. Not sure why carers need cars unless it's to transport the elderly. London has a 24/7 transport system.

You assert (quite emphatically) that the "vast majority" of Londoners don't need transport, but don't provide any links or stats, or give your assumption. I've been googling. Here's what I found:

1) London's transport network is excellent, and can additionally be supplemented by taxis/ubers/boris bikes/etc where appropriate (at a cost), but it's far from 24x7.
There are ~700 bus routes in London. The night bus covers approx 136 of them. https://londonbuses.fandom.com/wiki/Night_and_24-hour_bus_routes
The night tube is only Fridays and Saturdays, and covers only a fraction of the network. https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/tube-improvements/what-we-are-doing/night-tube

2) Google says approx 18% of the population are disabled; so potentially there is more than a "small number" who need a car, although this will be part-mitigated by free transportation services such as dial-a-ride provided by TfL.

3) The elderly (that's also ~18% of the population) also get free transportation services, dial-a-ride, TfL and National rail services. However, that doesn't necessarily replace personal transport requirements; I don't know anyone who has given up their car when the received their freedom pass.

4) You acknowledge builders and plumbers needing transport, but not roofers, carpenters, floorers, electricians, architects, glaziers, landscapers, gardeners or any of the other trades. What about Doggy-day care, cleaners, hairdressers, podiatrists, etc? In fact, there are some 4 million self-employed workers who by definition have no fixed job, so might be more likely to need a car.

5) Some carers certainly do transport their charges, although a more common travel requirement is business mileage between houses to provide domicilliary care. There's not enough time in the day to rely on public transport, even if the network was conveniently close enough, to say nothing of equipment that might need to be transported.

6) Other social care and health care roles involve home visits; social workers, district nurses, health visitors, cancer nurses, midwives, and GPs. This requires transport.

7) Driving jobs. Any job that involves driving a provided company vehicle (so bus drivers, taxi drivers, firefighters, police officers, paramedics, etc etc etc) - by definition they are already "drivers", so they probably already have their own car.



Considering all the above, even if there is overlap in the groups, I just can't accept your first line that I quoted.

 

[CXRAndy]

approx 18% of the population are disabled

Of which I suspect a significant margin are swinging the lead. I know several people (well enough) with minor issues that have been given disabled badges. Through their own admission 'gamed' the system to get the badge.

 

[biggs682]

Of which I suspect a significant margin are swinging the lead.

I know 3 blue badge holders who are certainly not swinging the lead as you put it