Are we being forced to go electric?

[biggs682]

Fixed it. Shame that in most of the rest of the country, public transport is a shambles.

Perhaps we all move to Lambeth

 

[Jameshow]

Many of those on low incomes have still be able to afford a vehicle however, not so with EVs most of which are £15k+ (or older, leggy and potentially in need of a new battery in the not so distant future)

You just exchange the unreliable engine for an unreliable battery!

 

[vickster]

You just exchange the unreliable engine for an unreliable battery!

Except most engines really aren't that unreliable even on older cars if well maintained

 

[cougie uk]

EVs are more reliable than engines. Less to go wrong.

 

[Pale Rider]

EVs are less reliable than engines. Lots of complex electronics to go wrong.

Which is another sweeping statement with little to back it up, but it's worth bearing in mind the breakdown services will tell you the majority of faults with ICE cars are electrical.

 

[icowden]

He lives in a town with a station and ample buses, yet can’t live without a car as he sends his children to a private school that can only be accessed by car as he won’t pay for the ‘public transport‘ bus option.

I live in a town which has 9 bus routes, each of which is serviced about once an hour. Most of the busses do not go anywhere useful. The railway station is a 40 minute walk from where I live. To get there by bus would require a 10 minute walk, then a bus (561) that goes once an hour to the high street, then another bus that goes once an hour (468) or the 555 (once an hour) from the high street.

Paying for the school bus would be pointless, expensive and increase pollution as I would have to drive to Walton Station to drop the kids and all their bags off at a diesel minibus, when the school is only another 10 minutes away. I would never actually be able to go and see my kids in school productions as there are no public busses that go that way unless I paid for a minicab. Cycling to the school is only really viable via a very circuitous route as we are waiting for new infrastructure on that road and my wife doesn't cycle.

Lets compare that with Lambeth:-

Lambeth has 33 bus routes each of which is serviced every 10 to 15 minutes and bus stops are usually no more than 5 minutes walk away. Lambeth has two tube stops, one of which is Waterloo Station which services most of the South and South East and which has regular fast trains to London Bridge to go East. Lambeth has electric bikes, e-scooters, public bikes, and a vast number of taxis.

Your definition of "ample" and mine are very different. There isn't even a direct bus from the train station to the sports centre and swimming pool as the bus company withdrew it - despite it being the most obvious route for a bus.

Is there a reason for the difference between Lambeth and Walton? Well apart from one of the major UK railway stations being in Lambeth, Lambeth has a population of 317,654 and an area of 10.36 square miles. Walton has a population of 22,834 and an area of 6.1 square miles. Population density is 6120 per square mile in walton as opposed to 31,000 per square mile in Lambeth. Could that be a clue as to why you don't need a car in Lambeth but you do in Surrey? It's almost as if areas with relatively low populations have worse transport than those with very high populations...

 

[icowden]

EVs are less reliable than engines. Lots of complex electronics to go wrong.

EVs are more reliable than engines. Fewer moving parts and no explosions

Which is another sweeping statement with little to back it up, but it's worth bearing in mind the breakdown services will tell you the majority of faults with ICE cars are electrical.

Here's a factual statement from the AA in 2022:-

The proportion of electric cars rescued by the AA for being ‘out of charge’ has halved in the last two years from 8% of breakdowns to under 4% of breakdowns today, the organisation's latest figures show. However, half of that 4% have not actually run out but the AA has been called out as the car is just low on charge.

The statistics show that top one third of breakdowns for electric cars are exactly the same faults as with petrol or diesel cars – 12v battery problems and tyres. Other faults are quite different and cover things such as charging equipment, warning lights, battery monitoring systems or key transponders.

And from 2023:-

There has been more than a 70% drop in the proportion of electric vehicles running out of charge over the last few years, according to the AA.
The motoring group said the number of ‘out of charge’ EV breakdowns was running at 8% of all EV breakdowns four years ago – but dropped to 4% last year and 2.1% currently.
EVs out of charge were less than 2% for the first time in May, at 1.8% or just 135 breakdowns.
According to Edmund King, who spoke today at the EV Infrastructure Summit in London, said the reduction was due to longer ranges, a more reliable public charging network which was still growing, and better informed drivers.

EVs out of charge has parity with misfueling / running out of fuel in ICE vehicles.

 

[Pale Rider]

Lambeth has 33 bus routes each of which is serviced every 10 to 15 minutes and bus stops are usually no more than 5 minutes walk. Lambeth has two tube stops, one of which is Waterloo Station which services most of the South and South East and which has regular fast trains to London Bridge to go East. Lambeth has electric bikes, e-scooters, public bikes, and a vast number of taxis.

You fail to take into account the hazardous nature of living in places such as Lambeth.

Waiting for and using public transport can be an enormous risk to your safety.

It's no surprise residents who can afford it prefer personal transport.

It also ill-behoves any of us not living in those inner city ghetto conditions to tutor those who do on how they should go about their lives.


As regards EVs and reliability, this is a quote from your AA link: "The statistics show that top one third of breakdowns for electric cars are exactly the same faults as with petrol or diesel cars – 12v battery problems and tyres."

As I said, electrics cause a lot of problems for ICE cars.

I'm not sure the fact that EVs are the same is much of an endorsement of them.

 

[Gunk]

EVs are less reliable than engines. Lots of complex electronics to go wrong.

Which is another sweeping statement with little to back it up, but it's worth bearing in mind the breakdown services will tell you the majority of faults with ICE cars are electrical.

 

[icowden]

You fail to take into account the hazardous nature of living in places such as Lambeth.
Waiting for and using public transport can be an enormous risk to your safety.

Now you're being silly. I used to work in Lambeth and the public transport is fantastic.

It's no surprise residents who can afford it prefer personal transport.

SO they can sit in a permanent traffic jam and have nowhere to park it?

It also ill-behoves any of us not living in those inner city ghetto conditions to tutor those who do on how they should go about their lives.

No tutoring. It's a statement of fact. If you live or work in Lambeth you have very little use for a car.

I'm not sure the fact that EVs are the same is much of an endorsement of them.

They aren't. They don't have oil leaks, they don't overheat. They do occasionally get a flat tyre which is a pain as most EVs don't have spare tyres. I suspect the majority of calls are for flat tyres. I have had problems with ICE cars in the past with a burst oil gasket or some such, a faulty alternator, a faulty 12v battery which meant the car wouldn't start, radiator leaks and a flat tyre. Most of those can't happen to an ICE car.

 

[vickster]

Now you're being silly. I used to work in Lambeth and the public transport is fantastic.

Again, you think everyone has the same feelings and experiences as you. For starters, you’re a man. Would you be comfortable with your daughters using public transport at all hours in all areas of Lambeth for example?
You’ve ignored his point about the potential dangers of using public transport in London especially out of peak hours for those in society who are potentially more vulnerable. You worked in Lambeth...so you got there around 9am and left around 6pm presumably most of the time. Whereabouts in Lambeth and when? it's a sizeable borough of very mixed environments

 

[Pale Rider]

Now you're being silly. I used to work in Lambeth and the public transport is fantastic.

You are still missing the point, the public transport may be good, but the overall outside environment is hazardous.

No tutoring. It's a statement of fact. If you live or work in Lambeth you have very little use for a car.

You are still telling people what do, yet you have never lived in a crime/drug ridden inner London borough.

It's not a statement of fact, it's an arrogant man in a privileged position telling the little people what to do.

They aren't. They don't have oil leaks, they don't overheat. They do occasionally get a flat tyre which is a pain as most EVs don't have spare tyres. I suspect the majority of calls are for flat tyres. I have had problems with ICE cars in the past with a burst oil gasket or some such, a faulty alternator, a faulty 12v battery which meant the car wouldn't start, radiator leaks and a flat tyre. Most of those can't happen to an ICE car.

Another missed point.

Your research tells you EVs suffer from 12v electrical problems in the same way ICE cars do.

Yes, the big orange high voltage cable from the battery to the motor rarely breaks down, but that doesn't mean the car will always go.

Most EVs rely on a 12v system and battery for 'command and control' - that's the bit which is most likely to give problems.

 

[lazybloke]

Which has always been the case really. Electric vehicles make little difference there.

That's making light of some fairly large prices at a time of a cost of living crisis.
Even if inflation and mortgage rates magically dropped to 2% overnight, it would takes years of above-inflation wage increases before levels of disposable income recovered to previous levels, so buying a used ev could be a significant challenge in years to come.

There are various suggestions on the site such as:
Walk, cycle, catch the bus, move, change jobs,.etc
These are certainly partial answers, but if personal transport quickly becomes unaffordable to low paid earners, especially night workers, shift workers, community workers (healthcare, social care), trades, and so on, then government support might also be necessary to avoid a large impact on vital services.

 

[CXRAndy]

EVs are less reliable than engines. Lots of complex electronics to go wrong.

Which is another sweeping statement with little to back it up, but it's worth bearing in mind the breakdown services will tell you the majority of faults with ICE cars are electrical.

That's because they have lots of connections attached to very high heat sources, vibration from the engine. These extremes are not present in an EV.

EV are simpler in overall design with far less moving parts

 

[icowden]

You are still telling people what do, yet you have never lived in a crime/drug ridden inner London borough.

Are you stalking me? How do you know where I have lived and where I haven't?

Places I have lived in London:-

• Roehampton
• Wandsworth (Garratt Lane)
• Southfields
• Wimbledon
• Putney

Places I have worked in London:

• Lambeth
• Southwark
• Clapham
• Tooting
• Camden

And yet I know nothing about London Boroughs. Your stalking is pretty rubbish. Try harder next time

It's not a statement of fact, it's an arrogant man in a privileged position telling the little people what to do.

I have told no-one what to do and the only arrogance is coming from the cowboy who assumes he knows where people have lived and worked. I have stated as fact that there is no point owning a car in an inner London borough. There just isn't. The only people who need vehicles are tradespeople or people who have a great deal of equipment to carry. There is no use case. You can't park the things anywhere or get anywhere in them any quicker than you can on a tube or bus.

Most EVs rely on a 12v system and battery for 'command and control' - that's the bit which is most likely to give problems.

So that's the bit that's comparable to an ICE vehicle. A third of a third or so of problems. I'll live with that and leave the ICE vehicles to the other 66% of problems.