Are we being forced to go electric?

[fossyant]

I still got to work without complaints, in record time, on my zero emission vehicle this morning - you should hear the moans about traffic (EV and ICE)

 

[figbat]

I can't see how ANYTHING which uses rare earths and/or is manufactured thousands of miles away, can be called 'green'. GreenER than some other things, certainly, but not free of damage to the environment.

Out of interest, which rare earth elements are we talking about? The focus is usually on lithium, nickel, cobalt and manganese but none of these are rare earths (not to say that they don't have their mining and production issues but then so does the extraction and refining of crude oil). Perhaps there are some RE elements I am not aware of used as catalysts, or in trace amounts?

 

[cougie uk]

There's a program on R4 next week about rare earth elements and it's mining. Might be worth a listen. I think it's Monday to Friday.

 

[Alex321]

Out of interest, which rare earth elements are we talking about? The focus is usually on lithium, nickel, cobalt and manganese but none of these are rare earths (not to say that they don't have their mining and production issues but then so does the extraction and refining of crude oil). Perhaps there are some RE elements I am not aware of used as catalysts, or in trace amounts?

Many current EVs with permanent magnets use things like neodymium and dysprosium as part of those.

There are some around which use induction motors instead, which don't use RE, and attempts are being made to reduce the reliance on them for the permanent magnet versions.

https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/rare-earths-in-evs-problems-solutions-and-what-is-actually-happening/25071

 

[figbat]

Many current EVs with permanent magnets use things like neodymium and dysprosium as part of those.

There are some around which use induction motors instead, which don't use RE, and attempts are being made to reduce the reliance on them for the permanent magnet versions.

https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/rare-earths-in-evs-problems-solutions-and-what-is-actually-happening/25071

Good steer - I was blinkered on batteries and forgot about the magnets in the motors.

 

[KnittyNorah]

So that's ICE cars out , their electronics are full of them . As is whatever device you posted this from.

Yes, I know. I wouldn't say they are full of them - but there are other common minerals there, and everywhere, that concern me too. That is the nature of much of technology, unfortunately.

I don't claim that anything I currently do is 'green'. Significantly greenER than the common everyday practices of many people in both my peer group and others, perhaps, is the most I feel I can claim. I try to remain aware at all times, though, which usually enables me to take what I hope is the greener option when a choice is available.

 

[KnittyNorah]

Out of interest, which rare earth elements are we talking about? The focus is usually on lithium, nickel, cobalt and manganese but none of these are rare earths (not to say that they don't have their mining and production issues but then so does the extraction and refining of crude oil). Perhaps there are some RE elements I am not aware of used as catalysts, or in trace amounts?

@Alex321 answered.
Concern is widely acknowledged and expressed about current mining practices for cobalt and the like; much less widely expressed is concern about rare earth extraction, production and consumption. I try to remain aware - even if it's only a very general awareness - of all areas of concern. Rare earths (which aren't necessarily particularly rare ...) are classed as 'critical materials' so recycling is of definite interest : https://energyindustryreview.com/metals-mining/rare-earth-recycling/

 

[CXRAndy]

@Alex321 answered.
Concern is widely acknowledged and expressed about current mining practices for cobalt and the like; much less widely expressed is concern about rare earth extraction, production and consumption. I try to remain aware - even if it's only a very general awareness - of all areas of concern. Rare earths (which aren't necessarily particularly rare ...) are classed as 'critical materials' so recycling is of definite interest : https://energyindustryreview.com/metals-mining/rare-earth-recycling/

Because posters on this forum typing on a device which most probably has minerals mined, rare metals in the electronics. By doing this you're tacitly accepting the mining of said elements.

To gripe about one product that has them and not hold up your hands to possessing others is hypocrisy

 

[Alex321]

Because posters on this forum typing on a device which most probably has minerals mined, rare metals in the electronics. By doing this you're tacitly accepting the mining of said elements.

To gripe about one product that has them and not hold up your hands to possessing others is hypocrisy

Not really, when the question is being raised about whether the product is "green".

Whether other products you may own are any better isn't really relevant to that question.

 

[KnittyNorah]

To gripe about one product that has them and not hold up your hands to possessing others is hypocrisy

I am perfectly open about owning and using a device - several devices in fact - which uses what might be termed 'dodgy' minerals. Which is why I take an interest in the extraction, production and recycling of such minerals/metals. I try to buy 2nd hand/refurbished if at all possible and dispose of as responsibly as I can, when the time comes.

My gripe is with people who merely want, rather than those who actually need, electronic devices in their widest senses, and especially large. grossly- and multiply-polluting devices such as cars, as I thought I made clear in this post.

WRT cars, if a person needs a new car, then, if they can afford one, a new e-vehicle will (currently) be a greener option than a new ICE vehicle.
If they don't need a new car, the greenest option will probably be to keep the one they already have, look after it well and drive it less. If an existing car is not available, or not suitable for use, then - again if they can afford it - the greener option would probably be to buy a second-hand e-vehicle, if they can find an appropriate one.
If they don't actually need a car at all, but merely want one, there is no green option for them.
If they have only very occasional need of one, the greenest option would be to hire one, but that may not be convenient.
Convenient and green (or even green-ish) are not always happy bed-fellows ...
In all cases, whether or not one truly needs a car, or merely wants a car, and whatever the type of vehicle that is being driven, be it a brand spanking new latest-version e-car or an old ICE banger, driving as little, as considerately and as carefully as possible will improve the driver's green credentials. However, I fear that some - even many - people will consider a new e-vehicle gives them carte blanche to drive more, and faster, than they ever did before ... which rather defeats the purpose of 'being green'.

 

[All uphill]

I am perfectly open about owning and using a device - several devices in fact - which uses what might be termed 'dodgy' minerals. Which is why I take an interest in the extraction, production and recycling of such minerals/metals. I try to buy 2nd hand/refurbished if at all possible and dispose of as responsibly as I can, when the time comes.

My gripe is with people who merely want, rather than those who actually need, electronic devices in their widest senses, and especially large. grossly- and multiply-polluting devices such as cars, as I thought I made clear in this post.

WRT cars, if a person needs a new car, then, if they can afford one, a new e-vehicle will (currently) be a greener option than a new ICE vehicle.
If they don't need a new car, the greenest option will probably be to keep the one they already have, look after it well and drive it less. If an existing car is not available, or not suitable for use, then - again if they can afford it - the greener option would probably be to buy a second-hand e-vehicle, if they can find an appropriate one.
If they don't actually need a car at all, but merely want one, there is no green option for them.
If they have only very occasional need of one, the greenest option would be to hire one, but that may not be convenient.
Convenient and green (or even green-ish) are not always happy bed-fellows ...
In all cases, whether or not one truly needs a car, or merely wants a car, and whatever the type of vehicle that is being driven, be it a brand spanking new latest-version e-car or an old ICE banger, driving as little, as considerately and as carefully as possible will improve the driver's green credentials. However, I fear that some - even many - people will consider a new e-vehicle gives them carte blanche to drive more, and faster, than they ever did before ... which rather defeats the purpose of 'being green'.

You say it so well @KnittyNorah

Spot on.

 

[CXRAndy]

I wasn't suggesting folk turn in their ICE vehicles if they are perfectly serviceable.

Those thinking of get a new, nearly new car. EV should be right up there for choice.

Not everyone can have an EV at first due to logistics. That doesn't stop many people transitioning to EV.

In the early days of cars, not everyone could afford or cater for a car, but times and prices will alter to cover the majority.

I know EVs work, we do nearly 40,000 miles every year with them in 4 years of ownership

 

[figbat]

Whilst buying a used car may offer an environmental benefit to the new owner, since the environmental cost of production is effectively written off, used cars are only possible as a consequence of people selling them on, usually for a newer replacement. You don't get a healthy supply of used cars, or anything for that matter, without someone further up the chain buying a new replacement. If nobody's buying new cars then nobody gets used ones (save for the small number that become available through death or giving up cars). Can the person passing on a used car claim some of the environmental benefit of doing that to offset the new one, rather than scrapping it?

 

[icowden]

WRT cars, if a person needs a new car, then, if they can afford one, a new e-vehicle will (currently) be a greener option than a new ICE vehicle.
If they don't need a new car, the greenest option will probably be to keep the one they already have, look after it well and drive it less.

It's the second part that's a bit difficult. Depending on how much they drive it may well still be greener to get an EV than continue driving an ICE vehicle if they can afford to do so. Those tail pipe emissions add up quickly.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

It's the second part that's a bit difficult. Depending on how much they drive it may well still be greener to get an EV than continue driving an ICE vehicle if they can afford to do so. Those tail pipe emissions add up quickly.

The tail pipe emissions still exist, they're just being produced by the person who bought the 2nd hand car that the EV person traded in.