Zwift Chat

[alex_cycles]

The problem is that most Zwift races are won either in sprints, or in short efforts of 1-5 minutes on crucial climbs, so the vast majority of B races won't threaten to put the top contenders over category limits. Even the mystical autocat algorithm hasn't bumped up this guy (who, you can see, used to be an 'A'). What's the verdict of the Tragic Gimp Committee?

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It's odd. I've seen people who are ZP Bs racing in Cat Enforcement C races because the systems are slightly different. Zwift missed a trick there. We've been calling it "race like a chump" all month. Then "race like a chimp". But clearly they should have called it "race like a GIMP" all along.

In the Tiny Races on Saturday, they tried out Pack Dynamics 4, which some of the regular top guys totally hated. It was a bit weird - made the whole pack string out in race 2 on the downhill. Race 1 was fairly blobby though. But the fact that some of the "cruise and smash" guys hated it seems to be a good sign. It did reduce the churn in the pack, but people said it made it much harder at the back.

 

[steverob]

Now I do like ZRL even though I'm crap in it (probably because the social aspect of the racing makes it more fun even if you finish 50th), but I do think overall it has been a bad thing for racing in Zwift.

Flamme Rouge is a case in point. It's an interesting GC series that should favour those who are able to cope with the bigger climbs and can finish in high places over longer stages (well, long for Zwift races anyway). Yes there are points competitions for the sprints and those smaller KOMs that can be smashed, but they are separate from the main standings, so you SHOULD be able to ignore them if you only want to take part in the GC and concentrate on your finishing position.

However it has been so baked into the psyche of your average Zwift rider by ZRL that every prime has to be fought for, so because you need to stay with the pack it means that to get a good GC time/position in any non-ZRL series, you have to bust your gut out at all the primes as well, otherwise you get dropped and have to ride around the rest of the course in no-man's land (or sit up and wait for another group to catch you).

Imagine a TdF where Pogacar, Vingegaard, Thomas, etc. were forced to take part at the front in every mid-stage sprint and 4th cat climb and if they missed one, they'd be ruling themselves out of competing for the yellow jersey? It's bizarre but that's the system we've ended up with - you end up playing by ZRL rules, even when it's not a ZRL race.

 

[bridgy]

The Splitters B cat squad for the ZRL (re-starting next Tuesday) is a man down after Tommy's promotion to Cat A. Are there any other Cat B - or aspiring Cat B - riders out there who want to join the squad? It's OK if you won't be able to make all the races (or you might not be picked for them all!) but it's always good to have a good sized squad because there's invariably dropouts each week for various reasons

 

[<Tommy>]

The problem is that most Zwift races are won either in sprints, or in short efforts of 1-5 minutes on crucial climbs, so the vast majority of B races won't threaten to put the top contenders over category limits. Even the mystical autocat algorithm hasn't bumped up this guy (who, you can see, used to be an 'A'). What's the verdict of the Tragic Gimp Committee?

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I just had a similar thing. It’s weird. I’ve been in B but been auto catted to A. Now I’m in A on zp, but last week auto cat was saying I could race in their B race. Now it’s put me in A across both systems. But it doesn’t fill you with complete confidence.

 

[<Tommy>]

It's a gimp suit ... the chaffing is part of the fun

i get Lee's position, and that's why it's unlikely anyone is going to self promote and end up like Lee. As Lee can see, it's frustrating being dropped, so why would someone choose a higher cat than their numbers ... just to get dropped? Especially if those riders are already getting dropped in the lower cat that they already race in?

Each to their own I guess ....

I think the numbers tend to speak for themselves don’t they. Some cases are marginal. Some blindingly obvious (Not mentioning any names…)

As lots of us have said many (many) times, we look forward to, and hope for a better system. There are people in every cat from B downwards who stand no chance in races because they are faced every race with people who are blatantly over powered for the cat they’re in. Those are the people I have sympathy for.

In Lee’s case I know he’s the type of guy who always pushes as hard as he can in life so I’m sure from talking with him about it he makes peace with where he is that way.

 

[bridgy]

Now I do like ZRL even though I'm crap in it (probably because the social aspect of the racing makes it more fun even if you finish 50th), but I do think overall it has been a bad thing for racing in Zwift.

Flamme Rouge is a case in point. It's an interesting GC series that should favour those who are able to cope with the bigger climbs and can finish in high places over longer stages (well, long for Zwift races anyway). Yes there are points competitions for the sprints and those smaller KOMs that can be smashed, but they are separate from the main standings, so you SHOULD be able to ignore them if you only want to take part in the GC and concentrate on your finishing position.

However it has been so baked into the psyche of your average Zwift rider by ZRL that every prime has to be fought for, so because you need to stay with the pack it means that to get a good GC time/position in any non-ZRL series, you have to bust your gut out at all the primes as well, otherwise you get dropped and have to ride around the rest of the course in no-man's land (or sit up and wait for another group to catch you).

Imagine a TdF where Pogacar, Vingegaard, Thomas, etc. were forced to take part at the front in every mid-stage sprint and 4th cat climb and if they missed one, they'd be ruling themselves out of competing for the yellow jersey? It's bizarre but that's the system we've ended up with - you end up playing by ZRL rules, even when it's not a ZRL race.

I don't think it's the ZRL that's caused the issue you highlight - I just think it's the inherent nature of Zwift racing and the need to stay in the front group that causes the sprint for primes even when you don't really want to compete for them. If enough people gambled and held back, a larger group would form behind and soon catch up with the sprinters, but there's both a fear of that gamble back-firing and a potential big gain by making it to the front when others don't - so everyone sprints. It's game theory really. Same reason there's an unecessary sprint from the line every race (not as bad as it used to be though).

You could overcome this by having a pure GC stage race with no sprint segments but it would be pretty boring - basically the best climber would win if there's a stage with a big climb, and the rest would be kind of irrelevant.

What I do think ZRL racing - and other new formats of racing on zwift - have done is broken the categorisation system completely (which is why it keeps coming up on here). The races are so much more tactical than ever before and people have got better at it. They draft more effectively and use 1 to 5 minute power and a decent sprint to win races and amass segment points - 20 minute power in these race series is WAY less important, but is still used for categorisation.

It's not perfect though and there's still lots of room for improvement, but I'd take it over just sitting in the pack draft from start to finish or doing an ITT every stage

 

[<Tommy>]

It's odd. I've seen people who are ZP Bs racing in Cat Enforcement C races because the systems are slightly different. Zwift missed a trick there. We've been calling it "race like a chump" all month. Then "race like a chimp". But clearly they should have called it "race like a GIMP" all along.

In the Tiny Races on Saturday, they tried out Pack Dynamics 4, which some of the regular top guys totally hated. It was a bit weird - made the whole pack string out in race 2 on the downhill. Race 1 was fairly blobby though. But the fact that some of the "cruise and smash" guys hated it seems to be a good sign. It did reduce the churn in the pack, but people said it made it much harder at the back.

This is what I was faced with. I just raced in A to be fair. Bit odd though isn’t it?

 

[Peter Salt]

I find course knowledge to be absolutely essential. It can compensate for lack of ability if you know where all the peaks and troughs and all the sprints and KoMs are. You can make sure you're in the right position to get the best possible result out of limited ability.
And, dare I say it, have a plan. (e.g. smash up Titan's Grove at 350Watts)

None of that would change how much of a bastard the Champs Elysées is for a lightweight though, but maybe get dropped a bit later.

I have to admit - I nerd out on course recons a little bit. Tend to know where every segment or feature starts and finishes - like I said before: With my numbers I need all the help there is. Knowing the segment won't help when legs turn into jelly but at least I know I came prepared

 

[Joffey]

This is what I was faced with. I just raced in A to be fair. Bit odd though isn’t it?

Congrats on the promotion mate. Sad you can't race for Splitters but great news that you are getting fitter and faster 👍

 

[Norry1]

There's race Makuri starting tomorrow too (and Tour of Makuri starting on 3rd November)
Race Makuri has a GC and team positions etc (Like September's "Get Rolling" and October's "Race Like a Chimp") That's just one a week (events every couple of hours), so quite doable. Will be some new courses in the second half of November too.

I might have a go at Race Makuri. I've done 2 D races now and my fitness and power are slowly coming back. If it carries on improving, I'll go from the top of D to bottom of C pretty soon, especially if the weight starts to come off as well (no sign of that at present!)

I like the fact I can race this series when it suits me during the day, as I'm not over keen on later evening racing.

 

[alex_cycles]

I might have a go at Race Makuri. I've done 2 D races now and my fitness and power are slowly coming back. If it carries on improving, I'll go from the top of D to bottom of C pretty soon, especially if the weight starts to come off as well (no sign of that at present!)

I like the fact I can race this series when it suits me during the day, as I'm not over keen on later evening racing.

I don't like evening racing, really only make an exception for ZRL because it's so much fun.
I just did race 1 Makuri. It was quite a hard start and first half up the little climb.

Then a routine middle section. I was in the front bunch of about 30. Got to the last km all flat and thought. "I don't want to slug it out with these guys, I'm going at 700m" So at 700m I deployed aero helmet and went. 2 buggers caught me in the last hundred, but I held on for bronze.

 

[Whorty]

I don't like evening racing, really only make an exception for ZRL because it's so much fun.
I just did race 1 Makuri. It was quite a hard start and first half up the little climb.

Then a routine middle section. I was in the front bunch of about 30. Got to the last km all flat and thought. "I don't want to slug it out with these guys, I'm going at 700m" So at 700m I deployed aero helmet and went. 2 buggers caught me in the last hundred, but I held on for bronze.

That's my tactic ... go early, and keep pushing hoping that my 1 minute is better than anyone else's

I reckon 6-700 metres is a minute ... so that's when I go too. I don't have a massive sprint, so the longer you wait to go, you let those with bigger sprints have an advantage. By going early you're removing that 15 seconds massive power

 

[alex_cycles]

That's my tactic ... go early, and keep pushing hoping that my 1 minute is better than anyone else's

I reckon 6-700 metres is a minute ... so that's when I go too. I don't have a massive sprint, so the longer you wait to go, you let those with bigger sprints have an advantage. By going early you're removing that 15 seconds massive power

That's what I had to do because the finish was flat. Looking at the power curves W & W/kg, at one minute, if it had been uphill I'd have had 'em

 

[Randyberlin]

I might have a go at Race Makuri. I've done 2 D races now and my fitness and power are slowly coming back. If it carries on improving, I'll go from the top of D to bottom of C pretty soon, especially if the weight starts to come off as well (no sign of that at present!)

I like the fact I can race this series when it suits me during the day, as I'm not over keen on later evening racing.

Oh, now it’s obvious. Best sandbagging technique ever. First get a magic marker and draw a line down your hip. Then after having your wife drop you off at the hospital (Sorry honey, can’t come in, Covid protocols) sneak out the back and have fun at a local hotel. Taxi back to hospital to be picked up. The terrible hangover can help your “acting”.
Now you’re all set for a miracle comeback and extra sympathy from the spouse.
You sir are my hero.
Tommy’s kidney stone gambit pales in comparison.

 

[alex_cycles]

Oh, now it’s obvious. Best sandbagging technique ever. First get a magic marker and draw a line down your hip. Then after having your wife drop you off at the hospital (Sorry honey, can’t come in, Covid protocols) sneak out the back and have fun at a local hotel. Taxi back to hospital to be picked up. The terrible hangover can help your “acting”.
Now you’re all set for a miracle comeback and extra sympathy from the spouse.
You sir are my hero.
Tommy’s kidney stone gambit pales in comparison.

Don't forget the fingering - that cost extra