Zwift Chat

[Del C]

Here's your weekly 'outsider's report'!

A good night for WTRL Wanderers. We finished 11th out of 22 and picked up 10 series points which has pulled us up to 16th out of 22 with 37 points.

We had 17 A Cat riders in our B cat league last night. Our best rider (he's a B cat) placed 19th, so that's a pretty awesome performance considering the company he was in.

I had probably my best ride in the league after last week's disappointing effort. Started well and at the base of the first climb I was 45th out of 123. I was thinking "Is this too good to last?" I didn't really need to waste my time on that because the answer was obviously "Of course it is you f***wit"

I got a PB up the first KoM but it wasn't good enough to stay with the front group and I fell off into a group of about 10 riders that stayed together until the 2nd KoM. Lost a bit more there and ended up in a smaller group, but by now towards the back of the field. Eventually one of my teammates and I broke away and had a 2 up ride for about the last 8km, putting some extra seconds into the guys behind us.

Placing was nothing to write home about as I came in 114th out of 123 in a time of 58.20. But I was 4th highest finisher in my team, so quite happy with that in a very strong field.

Once again, the strength of the field really dictated the finishing times. Our 6th fastest rider finished in 121st place in 1.03.20. He's been finishing 30 places or so ahead of me in earlier races, and usually 4 to 5 minutes quicker. He got a bad start yesterday and lost the group before even reaching the base of the first KoM and never recovered, ending up 5 minutes behind me.

If I'd just held my group on the 2nd KoM (and I didn't lose them by much) it looks like I'd have been 1 to 2 minutes quicker and about 10 places higher. Marginal gains!! Or losses in my case!!!

So, much happier last night.

 

[Joffey]

Ah, it wasn't just me last night who got a bad start then and spat out the back - my time was 1:03 and change too

Not sure what happened really, I was at the front, doing 400-500 watts and everyone just shot past me. Must try harder!!!!

 

[BurningLegs]

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2020/11/smart-cycle-trainer-recommendations-guide-winter.html

Had a quick read - don't suppose any of these are actually in stock anywhere but don't really see anything compelling enough for me to upgrade anyway.

Still waiting for that Zwift hardware to shake the market up...

 

[<Tommy>]

Well done everyone. Another painful course safely navigated 😄👍.

 

[<Tommy>]

Had a quick read - don't suppose any of these are actually in stock anywhere but don't really see anything compelling enough for me to upgrade anyway.

Still waiting for that Zwift hardware to shake the market up...

I think all those trainers have dual sided power readings with accuracy around 1% ish(?). Have zwift hinted they’re going to bring something more than that?

 

[IrishAl]

Looking at the rider points last night shows how valuable the bonus points can be on top of everyone pushing for as high a place as possible. we finished 2nd with 65 rider points, and BRT 3rd with 61 points.

 

[BurningLegs]

I think all those trainers have dual sided power readings with accuracy around 1% ish(?). Have zwift hinted they’re going to bring something more than that?

Not that I've read, but their commercial model could be significantly different to the incumbents. They may choose to accept lower margins on hardware in order to gain and/or retain subscribers.

And I hope they don't go this direction, but they could also go down the proprietary route e.g a custom protocol so some as yet unknown future feature will only work with their hardware. I'm a little surprised we haven't seen anything yet to be honest - their hardware team is a couple of years old now, isn't it? They need to start earning their keep!

They might just bring in another trainer with the same features at the same price point, but why bother? We know they want to make the setup and beginner's experience as seamless as possible - that sounds like a smart bike to me. What if they released a Smart Bike at the £2k mark for example - that would shake things up, wouldn't it. Even if it just forces the other bikes from £3k closer to £2k, I'm keen to see how it plays out and wouldn't personally take the plunge on anything high-end until it happens.

 

[Whorty]

Not that I've read, but their commercial model could be significantly different to the incumbents. They may choose to accept lower margins on hardware in order to gain and/or retain subscribers.

And I hope they don't go this direction, but they could also go down the proprietary route e.g a custom protocol so some as yet unknown future feature will only work with their hardware. I'm a little surprised we haven't seen anything yet to be honest - their hardware team is a couple of years old now, isn't it? They need to start earning their keep!

They might just bring in another trainer with the same features at the same price point, but why bother? We know they want to make the setup and beginner's experience as seamless as possible - that sounds like a smart bike to me. What if they released a Smart Bike at the £2k mark for example - that would shake things up, wouldn't it. Even if it just forces the other bikes from £3k closer to £2k, I'm keen to see how it plays out and wouldn't personally take the plunge on anything high-end until it happens.

How about a Zwift smartbike, that opens up a new TRON2 bike in game

I'm with you that it's more likely they will go for a smart bike than just a trainer. They may even get the makers of the Peleton bike or the new Eschelon bike to make these bikes. Then it would be interesting if a Zwift bike works on other platforms that support the ANT+-FE-C or BLT protocols.

I'll be holding off on a smart bike purchase until the CV19 pandemic is over and the market direction becomes more clear (and keeping fingers crossed that my NEO2 doesn't break down )

 

[Aleman]

More likely to be Elite making the "Bike" product, they already have an exclusive on the Sterzo and Steering in the game

 

[BurningLegs]

WTRL have disqualified two finishers from our race last night. One disqualified for height (also disqualified on Zwiftpower), the other for being over power (not disqualified on Zwiftpower as things stand).

This is the rider who won the race last night but got disqualified (posted a higher avg w/kg than the winner of A Cat): https://zwiftpower.com/profile.php?z=1955403

That places me as 4th finisher, 2nd on both sprints and 3rd up the forward KOM - my most successful race ever by quite a margin!

 

[<Tommy>]

Not that I've read, but their commercial model could be significantly different to the incumbents. They may choose to accept lower margins on hardware in order to gain and/or retain subscribers.

And I hope they don't go this direction, but they could also go down the proprietary route e.g a custom protocol so some as yet unknown future feature will only work with their hardware. I'm a little surprised we haven't seen anything yet to be honest - their hardware team is a couple of years old now, isn't it? They need to start earning their keep!

They might just bring in another trainer with the same features at the same price point, but why bother? We know they want to make the setup and beginner's experience as seamless as possible - that sounds like a smart bike to me. What if they released a Smart Bike at the £2k mark for example - that would shake things up, wouldn't it. Even if it just forces the other bikes from £3k closer to £2k, I'm keen to see how it plays out and wouldn't personally take the plunge on anything high-end until it happens.

I dunno. I’m not sure it works like that? I don’t think you could cut a third from the cost of the current smart bikes or most electrical products, without making some massive compromises in manufacturing quality could you?

It’s a bit like when you open up a washing machine or a power tool. You can see quite quickly where the money has been spent or saved. On smart bikes one example is the shifters. Wattbike>stages>Tacx>wahoo. The prices of the bikes are directly comparable to the quality of the finish. The mechanical failing of the Tacx can be directly linked to the use of plastic rather than metal components. I guess I’d just be surprised if zwift produce a cheaper and at the same time superior product with no history of manufacturing.

The way manufacturing generally is at the moment I see prices rising well beyond inflation. I hope I’m wrong but I wouldn’t be surprised if the next generation of smart bikes is a third more expensive rather than a third cheaper than this generation.

 

[bobinski]

Here's your weekly 'outsider's report'!

A good night for WTRL Wanderers. We finished 11th out of 22 and picked up 10 series points which has pulled us up to 16th out of 22 with 37 points.

We had 17 A Cat riders in our B cat league last night. Our best rider (he's a B cat) placed 19th, so that's a pretty awesome performance considering the company he was in.

I had probably me best ride in the league after last week's disappointing effort. Started well and at the base of the first climb I was 45th out of 123. I was thinking "Is this too good to last?" I didn't really need to waste my time on that because the answer was obviously "Of course it is you f***wit"

I got a PB up the first KoM but it wasn't good enough to stay with the front group and I fell off into a group of about 10 riders that stayed together until the 2nd KoM. Lost a bit more there and ended up in a smaller group, but by now towards the back of the field. Eventually one of my teammates and I broke away and had a 2 up ride for about the last 8km, putting some extra seconds into the guys behind us.

Placing was nothing to write home about as I came in 114th out of 123 in a time of 58.20. But I was 4th highest finisher in my team, so quite happy with that in a very strong field.

Once again, the strength of the field really dictated the finishing times. Our 6th fastest rider finished in 121st place in 1.03.20. He's been finishing 30 places or so ahead of me in earlier races, and usually 4 to 5 minutes quicker. He got a bad start yesterday and lost the group before even reaching the base of the first KoM and never recovered, ending up 5 minutes behind me.

If I'd just held my group on the 2nd KoM (and I didn't lose them by much) it looks like I'd have been 1 to 2 minutes quicker and about 10 places higher. Marginal gains!! Or losses in my case!!!

So, much happier last night.

Sounds like a decent ride Del and good to feel positive.
Me though, I though I would improve on Richmond and had a mare of a ride unable to sustain power, falling off the lead group on the climb and then stuck in no mans land with a rider who had 2 team mates just ahead and so didn’t want to bridge to them. We had a pleasant exchange in which he rejected my exhortations! 😁 Still, shows the way this series is causing us all to ride for our teams. The gap grew to over 2 minutes. 80th place I think and a poor time. May drop out of the TTT tomorrow and get some rest. We need it at our age 😀

 

[BurningLegs]

It does happen like that in other markets @<Tommy> - look at inkjet printers and games consoles for example. They're often sold at very low margins or sometimes at a loss because the vendor is playing a long game where the consumer will spend on ink cartridges or software titles.

None of the incumbents could consider that sort of commercial model, but if they wanted to then Zwift could. If Zwift are firmly of the mindset that they're a software company selling hardware to drive subscriptions then its a logical step for them (the Microsoft model). If they now consider themselves a hardware company who make software that drives hardware sales then perhaps not (the Apple model).

I guess we are all waiting to find out, aren't we! 🙂

 

[bridgy]

WTRL have disqualified two finishers from our race last night. One disqualified for height (also disqualified on Zwiftpower), the other for being over power (not disqualified on Zwiftpower as things stand).

This is the rider who won the race last night but got disqualified (posted a higher avg w/kg than the winner of A Cat): https://zwiftpower.com/profile.php?z=1955403

That places me as 4th finisher, 2nd on both sprints and 3rd up the forward KOM - my most successful race ever by quite a margin!

Nice one Nick - even better!

I notice that guy's teammate came second so has now got points for the win - and based on his points it looks like he won ALL the KOMs and Sprints too!! His 95% of 20 minute power is also over 4.2w/kg and he's a Cat A as well so he must have only just scraped through the WTRL analysis.

The guy who won our race wasn't far off that power, having averaged 4.4wkg himself (not currently DQ'd though)

 

[<Tommy>]

It does happen like that in other markets @<Tommy> - look at inkjet printers and games consoles for example. They're often sold at very low margins or sometimes at a loss because the vendor is playing a long game where the consumer will spend on ink cartridges or software titles.

None of the incumbents could consider that sort of commercial model, but if they wanted to then Zwift could. If Zwift are firmly of the mindset that they're a software company selling hardware to drive subscriptions then its a logical step for them (the Microsoft model). If they now consider themselves a hardware company who make software that drives hardware sales then perhaps not (the Apple model).

I guess we are all waiting to find out, aren't we! 🙂

yep only time will tell! 😄

But... if we look at the sterzo we see a product I think it is over priced compared to manufacturing costs. I was quite surprised by that. You’d of thought they’d of basically given it away to get as many early adapters as possible 🤷‍♂️. But they went the complete opposite way.

In fact thinking about it, the sterzo probably has that in common with computer games and to a lesser extent ink cartridges (Don’t get me started on ink cartridges!) These things have a much higher development cost than they do manufacturing cost. Where as smart trainers will have a high manufacturing cost as well as development costs. Maybe they go down in price but I’d be surprised. I hope you’re right though!

Changing the subject slightly... what happened to the sterzo? Do they still use steering in races? I’ve not seen it mentioned in ages. I really thought that was going to take off much more than it has.