Why do people get such strong feelings over electric cars and solar panels etc.

[markemark]

Ea

Would you buy a second hand electric car? Think about it, your the second, third or fourth owner of the EV if battery goes whilst, you own it, you are going to get a very large bill.

According to the AA, the typical combustion engine car that travels 10,000 miles a year will have lost 60% of its value after three years. Under the same circumstances, electric cars are expected to lose 50% of their value.Dec 21, 2023

Depreciation is entirely related to 2nd hand demand. So although you may not, it’s clear that there’s a great demand for them. Yes battery is an unknown but there’s no worry about the gear box, exhaust, engine, turbo, radiator etc.
And a buyer can easily check how well the battery operates but it takes a skilled mechanic and foresight to assess the items listed above in an iCE

 

[CXRAndy]

They did say legacy manufacturing for vehicles would face a blood bath if they didn't get on board with early EV adoption.

We are now seeing these predictions. Ford, GM, VW have slashed workers and production. Now Renault and Stallantis are scaling back.

The legacy makers, scoffed at Tesla, saying they would outpace them by 2025 and Tesla would be a tiny producer by 2030.

It really looks like a world wide two horse race now

BYD and Tesla

 

[Time Waster]

It does make me wonder if there's a burning platforms effect with EV purchases. How many would buy EVs if there was no deadline or push towards them? When you have a big driver towards EVs such as deadline date for ICEs you're not getting an honest view on whether people really want them or getting them before they've no choice.

I know it's not just about the deadline stick, there's the environmental positives as a carrot but it's still a skewed situation towards EVs. I wonder if you can really say people are buying EVs in preference to ICEs?

 

[Baldy]

I don't suppose it's crossed your mind that some of us are looking at EV's because we want to live on a planet that's actually inhabitable.

 

[cougie uk]

Would you buy a second hand electric car? Think about it, your the second, third or fourth owner of the EV if battery goes whilst, you own it, you are going to get a very large bill.

I bought a second hand EV. It was two years old. Now it's almost six years old and I've not noticed any change in the range.

It's lasted better than the bloody Vauxhall diesel I bought from new anyway. They'll not get another penny off me !

 

[cougie uk]

No prospective government will set a date for EVs only its political suicide because the electorate don’t trust them or afford them.

Well they have set a date.

Do you know anything about industry ? How long the timelines are for new product?
It takes years to set up factories.
Stellantis have converted their Ellesmere Port factory to produce only electric vehicles.

It would cost them millions and take a long time to go back from this. Who's going to pay for that ?

Seriously by the time 2035 comes round nobody will be batting an eyelid over driving electric.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

It does make me wonder if there's a burning platforms effect with EV purchases. How many would buy EVs if there was no deadline or push towards them? When you have a big driver towards EVs such as deadline date for ICEs you're not getting an honest view on whether people really want them or getting them before they've no choice.

I know it's not just about the deadline stick, there's the environmental positives as a carrot but it's still a skewed situation towards EVs. I wonder if you can really say people are buying EVs in preference to ICEs?

You could also argue that it's skewed towards ICE cars as they don't have to pay for the environmental or health damage of their emissions.

In the same way that nobody bought a CFC free fridge for immediate personal benefit - the hidden costs of destroying the ozone layer led to them being banned.

 

[dicko]

I’ll just leave this here.
Toyota owns 50% of a Chinese vehicle manufacturer, the GAC Group. This year it launched its first ammonia-powered model, a four-cylinder car that produces 161 horsepower and a very small carbon footprint.

Yes Ammonia, who’d a thunk it?

 

[Alex321]

It does make me wonder if there's a burning platforms effect with EV purchases. How many would buy EVs if there was no deadline or push towards them? When you have a big driver towards EVs such as deadline date for ICEs you're not getting an honest view on whether people really want them or getting them before they've no choice.

I know it's not just about the deadline stick, there's the environmental positives as a carrot but it's still a skewed situation towards EVs. I wonder if you can really say people are buying EVs in preference to ICEs?

Apart from those who are doing so because they feel it is better for the planet, not many. That is why the legislation is needed, if we are to get rid of ICE cars in our lifetimes.

And I think there is general consensus from the scientific community, that while EVs are not perfect, and are not "the answer" by themselves, they are a major improvement over ICE vehicles, and will make a significant difference when coupled with greener electricity generation. So there is a very strong case for getting rid of ICE cars.

 

[mustang1]

While you're right in some ways (people naturally don't like change) ...I think you have to give people the credit that they've actually worked things out...and for millions, it just doesn't work out, its as simple as that. Its far more complex that 'I don't like change'

Infrastructure. I don't think ANY government has the will or the money to implement what's needed. Yes, it's a long term thing but the years are soon ticking away and people with EVs already complain about the lack of facilities.

Initial cost. Almost everyone at some stage is going to have to finance a huge lump of money they would never have had to.

Dubious environmental impact. What IS happening regarding battery recycling. Is the life of an EV actually going to be shorter than an ICE car based on battery replacement cost.? How much environmental impact is simply shifted from oil production to lithium and cobalt mining and battery production ?

Possible long term costs as batteries fail and then the car becomes a useless lump of steel and plastic.

Charging at home, for millions, its just not going to happen in a reliable way if you have no drive Street parking ?, if you turned over the entire length of the road so residents could charge, it simply wouldn't work on several levels. Space, in my street alone, 50 houses, you'd need 50 chargers or people are going to lose out. Vandalism, unreliability, selfish people leaving their car on charge all weekend, week, denying other road users. And the cost ?

And so on and so on....I'm a pretty average Joe, all these things have occurred to me, just as they will with millions of people like me.

It's not a knee jerk reaction, none of these questions have been answered in a comprehensive way, let alone ones I havnt thought of.

Equally, you have to concede, one of the problems is that ICE cars work SO well for people, that's actually part of the problem.

That is very well thought out. You know, I have been trained by various managers throughout my life that "change is the only constant" and

While you're right in some ways (people naturally don't like change) ...I think you have to give people the credit that they've actually worked things out...and for millions, it just doesn't work out, its as simple as that. Its far more complex that 'I don't like change'

Infrastructure. I don't think ANY government has the will or the money to implement what's needed. Yes, it's a long term thing but the years are soon ticking away and people with EVs already complain about the lack of facilities.

Initial cost. Almost everyone at some stage is going to have to finance a huge lump of money they would never have had to.

Dubious environmental impact. What IS happening regarding battery recycling. Is the life of an EV actually going to be shorter than an ICE car based on battery replacement cost.? How much environmental impact is simply shifted from oil production to lithium and cobalt mining and battery production ?

Possible long term costs as batteries fail and then the car becomes a useless lump of steel and plastic.

Charging at home, for millions, its just not going to happen in a reliable way if you have no drive Street parking ?, if you turned over the entire length of the road so residents could charge, it simply wouldn't work on several levels. Space, in my street alone, 50 houses, you'd need 50 chargers or people are going to lose out. Vandalism, unreliability, selfish people leaving their car on charge all weekend, week, denying other road users. And the cost ?

And so on and so on....I'm a pretty average Joe, all these things have occurred to me, just as they will with millions of people like me.

It's not a knee jerk reaction, none of these questions have been answered in a comprehensive way, let alone ones I havnt thought of.

Equally, you have to concede, one of the problems is that ICE cars work SO well for people, that's actually part of the problem.

Those are very good points. For most of my life, management always told me "change is the only constant" and slowly I got brain washed into that way of thinking. I always had this nagging doubt I. My mind about change for changes sake Vs change for good.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I’ll just leave this here.
Toyota owns 50% of a Chinese vehicle manufacturer, the GAC Group. This year it launched its first ammonia-powered model, a four-cylinder car that produces 161 horsepower and a very small carbon footprint.

Yes Ammonia, who’d a thunk it?

The "very small carbon footprint" is an interesting claim.

Hydrogen has become less and less attractive as batteries have been development for effective range, partly because of the difficulty in handling, but moreso because of the extreme inefficiency - you need about 3x as much electricity for hydrogen generation, storage and distribution as for the same power direct from a battery.

Ammonia is really just a vector for that hydrogen whilst allowing liquid storage at relatively high energy density compared to batteries.

But, now you need to make the ammonia too, and the Haber process is highly energy intensive.

And you're back to needing a complex engine.

And ammonia is toxic.

I don't know anything about this particular development, and I'm not saying it's impossible or could never be better than BEVs, but I'm very sceptical indeed, for these reasons.

Here's a link, which is just a regurgitation of the press release, I think.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/gac-and-toyota-develop-ammonia-engine-90-co2-reduction

As the article says, it could be a good option for applications like shipping.

 

[All uphill]

I had a quick look at Leafs on ebay earlier - one of the cheaper ones was a 2013 model with maybe 70-odd thousand miles on the clock and 40 miles range left on a full charge for about £2.5k. Granted, they were meant as short-range urban transport from the off so the starting figures were never great (maybe 130 miles for the smallest battery?); but what happens when that already tiny range becomes wholly unacceptable? It goes in the bin as it's not financially viable to replace the battery... at what, 100k miles, 10yrs age...?

I get the thought process that says it's not worth spending (say) £6k on something that has a market value of £2.5k.

But; another way of looking at it is to say, in the example you give, £6k battery replacement cost spread over an anticipated further 10 years of use is cheap.

It's a bit like buying an old Raleigh and spending £150 doing it up in the knowledge that it will last another 20 years, even though its market value is only £50 in its current state.

Tldr If I was buying a car I'd probably go for a used Leaf for £3k, use it and budget for a replacement battery within a couple of years, then hope for another 5 to 10 years use

 

[roubaixtuesday]

AIUI lifetime costs of EVs are already lower than ICE cars in the UK.

This article suggests 5 year break even point.

https://www.uswitch.com/electric-car/ev-charging/what-is-the-lifetime-cost-of-an-electric-vehicle/

There's a hidden cost to EVs though - I suspect the tax take on ICE cars is much higher, so you need taxes elsewhere to rise for a complete comparison...

 

[lazybloke]

Migration to electric vehicles will be fine in developed areas of the world (and maybe also in the UK!), particularly as battery costs continue to fall, and as range issues are addressed without impacting longevity.

But there will always be some vehicle usage in off-grid locations, where the choice will be between
A) implement chargers with supporting electrical generation & storage; with decreasing reliance on fossil fuels
B) Continue with ICE, but develop carbon-neutral fuels, and continue to work on other issues such as NOx emissions, particulates
C) Consider fuel cells, etc
D) Other?

There's no universal solution, so we'll see all of the above in parallel to some degree; just a different distribution of each from use case to use case.

 

[cougie uk]

I’ll just leave this here.
Toyota owns 50% of a Chinese vehicle manufacturer, the GAC Group. This year it launched its first ammonia-powered model, a four-cylinder car that produces 161 horsepower and a very small carbon footprint.

Yes Ammonia, who’d a thunk it?

Toyota also launched the hydrogen fuel cell car in 2015 and that's been a failure.

I don't think they're world leaders.