Why do people get such strong feelings over electric cars and solar panels etc.

[Time Waster]

I don't suppose it's crossed your mind that some of us are looking at EV's because we want to live on a planet that's actually inhabitable.

It has but I'm making the point that not everyone has that pov but might be buying EVs through compulsion. Might not be many but I'd bet there are ppl like that.

Personally for the sake of the planet I take the view personal transportation is the problem which makes EVs also part of the problem not a solution. To explain my attitude I use the train and bike at every possible opportunity for transportation. The times I don't are for journeys where there's no reasonable public transportation option. If my whole village packed in personal car use I bet there would be an economic argument to sort out the missing transportation options.

To give you an idea of the scale of my lifestyle change, I have gone from 20k miles a year to just over 6k miles a year. We moved to a village with a train station that allows me to commute one way and my partner the other. No more need to use a car daily. We are likely to keep our ICE vehicle in use as long as possible but with reduced use. Not least because significant carbon emissions come from the manufacture of personal transportation not just they're use. It's about best way to reduce carbon emissions and global warming taking into account the whole picture not just the in use emissions of ICE vs EV.

BTW an EV or ICE car that gets little use because you're using mass public transportation still has that massive carbon footprint due to production. Perhaps public transportation with car share schemes for when there's no alternative but personal vehicles is better than outright EV ownership too.

 

[Time Waster]

Apart from those who are doing so because they feel it is better for the planet, not many. That is why the legislation is needed, if we are to get rid of ICE cars in our lifetimes.

And I think there is general consensus from the scientific community, that while EVs are not perfect, and are not "the answer" by themselves, they are a major improvement over ICE vehicles, and will make a significant difference when coupled with greener electricity generation. So there is a very strong case for getting rid of ICE cars.

A better option is less personal car use and more public transportation. Also helped by ppl living near place of work such that walking is an option and where possible working from home. Add in local services and shops instead of having to travel are all part of a better solution. However it still seems EVs and their use is the only action being pushed forward (with the 5 year push back in the schedule aside).

As an example my Google news agglomeration put up a news article from the local rag to where I was at the weekend. It was about the boss of a large engineering company who had a 600 mile daily commute which was about to end as his company was setting up offices near where he lived.

 

[CXRAndy]

I’ll just leave this here.
Toyota owns 50% of a Chinese vehicle manufacturer, the GAC Group. This year it launched its first ammonia-powered model, a four-cylinder car that produces 161 horsepower and a very small carbon footprint.

Yes Ammonia, who’d a thunk it?

GAC is mum on the details of its ammonia-powered engine, though the company claims the 2.0-liter unit produces 161 horsepower and nets a 90 percent reduction in carbon emissions

It's way down on power and still emits pollution whilst running.

I think the EV horse has bolted, no one is going to catch it for the foreseeable future

 

[Time Waster]

161hp in a car when current vans run on 115 or 125hp in standard spec. Is 161hp really low on power or just low power for what used to be called petrolheads?!

Fair enough on the emissions point.

 

[gbb]

GAC is mum on the details of its ammonia-powered engine, though the company claims the 2.0-liter unit produces 161 horsepower and nets a 90 percent reduction in carbon emissions

It's way down on power and still emits pollution whilst running.

I think the EV horse has bolted, no one is going to catch it for the foreseeable future

Youre right of course, EVs have such a head start (mostly because governments/ authorities backed them as ...at least in the foreseable... the only realistic alternative to ICE)

But everything pollutes if you look over the vehicle life
ICE...obvious and immediate pollution while it's running, plus manufacture and disposal.
Ev, little running pollution but probably more environmental impact in manufacture and disposal...and perhaps its more because people may dispose of sooner as the battery gives out.
Hydrogen ( which while it appears to have zero running emissions, is looking quite improbable as a fuel for the masses.
There may well be other alternatives, most will fall to the wayside, those that don't may be years, perhaps decades away..

And as the title of the thread suggests, they wonder why EVs garner such scepticism (for so many of the reasons in the thread as a whole) for so many people. They could never (as far as I can see) replace ICE cars for the masses. Well, no-ones convinced me at the very least.

 

[cougie uk]

As an example my Google news agglomeration put up a news article from the local rag to where I was at the weekend. It was about the boss of a large engineering company who had a 600 mile daily commute which was about to end as his company was setting up offices near where he lived.

Even if we assumed he could do 60mph - then he'd be driving for 10 hours a day.
There is no way he's doing a commute like that 5 days a week. Did he stay near work in the week perhaps ?

 

[vickster]

Even if we assumed he could do 60mph - then he'd be driving for 10 hours a day.
There is no way he's doing a commute like that 5 days a week. Did he stay near work in the week perhaps ?

Maybe he travelled by train/plane...London to Newcastle would be around 300 miles each way for example

 

[Time Waster]

Even if we assumed he could do 60mph - then he'd be driving for 10 hours a day.
There is no way he's doing a commute like that 5 days a week. Did he stay near work in the week perhaps ?

Yep, reread it and might not be daily. It just says 600 mile round trip. Probably working away from home during the week. Still not the best use of time or resources. Even at only one round trip per working week it's still my great.

 

[Time Waster]

Interestingly enough I know of a company that provides daily schedule of private airline between certain airports near work sites to near other sites and main hub airports. Daily schedule to avoid individual journeys. Not sure that's good thing.

 

[Gillstay]

Would you buy a second hand electric car? Think about it, your the second, third or fourth owner of the EV if battery goes whilst, you own it, you are going to get a very large bill.

Its only like an engine going, granted maybe not as much. That's because currently manufacturers are supplying whole new battery packs. There is a small but growing market for companies replacing individual sections and on some battery design cells only. This will bring repair cost down enormously

Yep and I just had it explained how easy it is to swop them. Quite amazed.

 

[Tenkaykev]

The "very small carbon footprint" is an interesting claim.

Hydrogen has become less and less attractive as batteries have been development for effective range, partly because of the difficulty in handling, but moreso because of the extreme inefficiency - you need about 3x as much electricity for hydrogen generation, storage and distribution as for the same power direct from a battery.

Ammonia is really just a vector for that hydrogen whilst allowing liquid storage at relatively high energy density compared to batteries.

But, now you need to make the ammonia too, and the Haber process is highly energy intensive.

And you're back to needing a complex engine.

And ammonia is toxic.

I don't know anything about this particular development, and I'm not saying it's impossible or could never be better than BEVs, but I'm very sceptical indeed, for these reasons.

Here's a link, which is just a regurgitation of the press release, I think.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/gac-and-toyota-develop-ammonia-engine-90-co2-reduction

As the article says, it could be a good option for applications like shipping.

Yes, I started digging and found several articles on the subject. I do wonder with Toyota if they need to find some way to " save face " having lost so much ground pursuing the dead end of mass market hydrogen fuelled vehicles.

 

[classic33]

Youre right of course, EVs have such a head start (mostly because governments/ authorities backed them as ...at least in the foreseable... the only realistic alternative to ICE)

But everything pollutes if you look over the vehicle life
ICE...obvious and immediate pollution while it's running, plus manufacture and disposal.
Ev, little running pollution but probably more environmental impact in manufacture and disposal...and perhaps its more because people may dispose of sooner as the battery gives out.
Hydrogen ( which while it appears to have zero running emissions, is looking quite improbable as a fuel for the masses.
There may well be other alternatives, most will fall to the wayside, those that don't may be years, perhaps decades away..

And as the title of the thread suggests, they wonder why EVs garner such scepticism (for so many of the reasons in the thread as a whole) for so many people. They could never (as far as I can see) replace ICE cars for the masses. Well, no-ones convinced me at the very least.

You have autogas, should you feel like using it.

I'm often convinced that those shout the loudest about electric vehicles being the be all and end all, are trying to get others to convince them they've not made a mistake in shelling out for it.
That or they're not the ones that have actually paid for it. It's been paid for by their workplace. Which they're not slow in letting you know.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Yes, I started digging and found several articles on the subject. I do wonder with Toyota if they need to find some way to " save face " having lost so much ground pursuing the dead end of mass market hydrogen fuelled vehicles.

All sorts of reasons Toyota might find value in this that apply without it being intended to be a commercial proposition ever: building relationships in China, engineering prestige, bridge to other applications etc.

Car companies often produce concept vehicles not intended for commercialisation.

 

[Fab Foodie]

I have friends who get very angry about electric cars not being any good, and solar power not being the way forward.

They sneer at the eco tyres on my car, but are quiet amazed when they are not more expensive than normal tyres.

Some don't even tolerate electric bikes.

Yet they have electric coffee grinders rather than manual, wrist watches and chainsaws, hedgecutters, an drills, an washing machines...... with no problem.

What do we think is going on ?

They're tossers?

 

[tinywheels]

without leasing the games up for electric.
How many of these over priced and over hyped vehicles are actually bought by real people?
In our car park their all on a lease as its cheaper,not much Benefit in kind to pay. Take this away and no ones interested.