Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?

[MrGrumpy]

If this was something as deadly as say Ebola Im willing to bet all these anti vax people would be rolling up their sleeves and we would not be having these conversations.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I have been vaccinated twice (AstraZeneca) and had the booster (Pfizer), and believe that everyone should get vaccinated.

On the other hand the situation with Pfizer is that they have been prevaricating on releasing their data from a freedom of information request, so much so that the trickle of documents would at their pace of release take 70 years. A judge in the USA Texas Fort Worth on the 6th January ordered Pfizer to release the first 12000 pages by the 31st January and thereafter 55000 pages every 30 days the first due by date of 1st March 2022, (possible heavily redacted citing privilege, exemption or exclusion).
I have a problem with understanding what numbers really mean so I investigated a bit. You would think that with an efficacy of 90% that if 100 people get the virus then 10% won't get sick. Errr No.
(apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread)
The Pfizer data is from 43444 participants, half controlled (placebo) and the other half (intervention)
Of - 21769 there were 9 cases of sick patients (intervention), Case rate 0.04%
Of - 21769 there were 85 cases of sick patients (placebo), Case rate 0.39%
The figure of 90% efficacy is calculated as the difference between the cases i.e., 85 minus 9 divided by 85 = 90%.
The number of people needed to treat (NNT) is in this case is calculated as the absolute difference between these two numbers is 0.39% minus 0.04% = 0.35%. The NNT is calculated as 100 divided by the absolute difference. In this example that is 100 divided by 0.35% = 286. At the time of the first Pfizer press release, it was known that 286 people would need to be treated for 1 person to avoid being a Covid-19 case.

If you take into account those people who suffered reactions and became ill then this will impact on the figures adversely. Therefore I fully respect the right of an individual to refuse to take the jab. Especially with the Omicron variant and if they are not in a vulnerable group. The chances of getting sick are very very slim.

You can see why excessive administrative secrecy feeds conspiracy theories and reduces public confidence. On the other hand It should also be remembered that at the beginning of the pandemic the bar was just 50% efficacy required by the FDA.

Hardly, the efficacy as well as side effect data was in the information published by the UK MHA after the Pfizer vaccine was approved over a year ago. Published December 2020.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...tion_HCP_Information_BNT162_19_0_UK_Clean.pdf

 

[Arrowfoot]

My uncle will twist ONS data to say something entirely different, when it's explained to him and his errors corrected he will then say it's all false anyway.

Or he quote mines something from an article and again when the correct context is applied he throws it out, it's a very high level of dishonesty for sure, I then get called every name under the sun, and asked if my will and guardianship details for my kids is up to date, it's always totally toxic with him, no matter how cordial I keep things on my end.

He is also supporting things like the Alpha Men Assemble group as the time for talking is over...

The hardest is when your kin is right in it. I had my share and it sad and painful.

 

[C R]

If a doctor or nurse in ICU consciously chooses to lose their job I have to assume that they of all the professions must have weighed up the risk versus benefits carefully and are not a victim of ridiculous scare stories

I am not sure I would trust the judgement of a doctor or nurse that refuses the vaccination without an underlying medical cause.

 

[Milzy]

I'm sensing that the simple broad brush messages for getting the population fully vaccinated are slowly reducing now the Omicron Covid19 is taking over from Delta as the main variant. The NHS staff are still under threat of a loss of deployment or the sack if they are not vaccinated by April. IMO this will be dropped as there are as many as 10% unvaxxed and the NHS cannot afford to lose that number of staff. I don't agree that to force them to face the loss of their job or having a jab is the government's finest hour.
If a doctor or nurse in ICU consciously chooses to lose their job I have to assume that they of all the professions must have weighed up the risk versus benefits carefully and are not a victim of ridiculous scare stories. As individuals they can see first hand the risk profile of very sick and dying patients in ICU. OK 70% are unvaccinated but they are also elderly, obese, and have co morbidities. And the vaccinated in ICU are elderly, obese and have co morbidities. There are risks in taking the vaccine even if very low. If you are a doctor that has had covid that was asymptomatic and have a high number of antibodies you are not at risk from the virus and less likely to catch it at all and pass it on.
Lets suppose that come April I am wrong and there are multiple sackings guess what? All they have to do is move to Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland as it only applies to NHS England.
BTW as I have previously declared I am very pro vaccine and have had 3 jabs. But I'm not sure about any more.

Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.

 

[C R]

Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.

Respiratory doctor about how his patience is wearing thin with the unvaxxed
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

Oncologist about being asked to allow one of her patients to be removed from the ICU to make way for an unvaxxed patient needing a ventilator
ttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/13/my-bile-rises-as-im-asked-to-move-my-dying-cancer-patient-out-of-icu-to-make-room-for-an-unvaccinated-man-with-covid

Edited to add context to the links.

 

[Johnno260]

Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.

Not that being top of your class protects you.

https://www.sportbible.com/mma/antivaxxer-kickboxing-champion-dies-from-covid19-20211227.amp.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ss-influencer-ukraine-sofia-b1130533.html?amp

Also as an elite athlete your cardiovascular function is important right?

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...navirus/heart-problems-after-covid19?amp=true

Oh and if this is Novak you’re talking about people can take the morale high ground as he attended events days after testing positive, thats disgusting behaviour.

Edit: Also what makes Novak exempt from rules? Rules that the general public has to adhere to? He isn’t a special case, I don’t care who he is.

 

[DCBassman]

Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.

Unless you have underlying medical issues, there are no reasons to be unvaccinated, full stop. Elite athletes are not even slightly less susceptible than the average as far as I can see, but then no-one has checked...
There's no issue with any of the vaccines, they have had as much testing, maybe more, than any other vaccines have had before introduction, and they are proven to work. Vaccine-aversion is dumb, pure and simple. Vaccines are among the safest medicines, not the dodgiest.

 

[MontyVeda]

Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.

What's really sad is the fact that you think you're being rational and logical.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.

You are confusing fitness with health. Being an elite athlete doesn’t confer any extra health benefits over someone who exercises regularly. If you want the health benefits of exercise you don’t need to train like an elite 30 hours a week etc. Performance != health.

 

[Johnno260]

I have work colleagues in the New York and New Jersey area, I think these figures speak volumes.

Again it says a lot about the vaccinated vs unvaccinated rates of hospitalisations.

https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data

 

[MrGrumpy]

Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.

Your going to need a JCB with the hole your digging

 

[Alex321]

Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.

Is there any actually reasoning behind that?

Those people are absolutely right. It disgusts me that those elite athletes have been taken in by the silly scare stories. There is even less reason for them to not get vaccinated than there is for the rest of us. Many of them are involved in sports where social distancing is simply impossible. It is completely irresponsible for them to continue playing those sports without getting vaccinated.

 

[mjr]

If this was something as deadly as say Ebola Im willing to bet all these anti vax twats would be rolling up their sleeves and we would not be having these conversations.

When they get covid, most of them stop demanding to know what's in all the medications that are saving their lives.

Maybe Quebec has the right idea with a higher health tax for the unvaccinated-by-choice?

 

[Alex321]

If a doctor or nurse in ICU consciously chooses to lose their job I have to assume that they of all the professions must have weighed up the risk versus benefits carefully and are not a victim of ridiculous scare stories.

For some reason you feel you "have to assume" something which is certainly the opposite of the truth. Why do you feel you have to assume this?

As individuals they can see first hand the risk profile of very sick and dying patients in ICU. OK 70% are unvaccinated but they are also elderly, obese, and have co morbidities. And the vaccinated in ICU are elderly, obese and have co morbidities.

Well according to this doctor in a Welsh hospital, at that hospital it is ALL patients in ICU are unvaccinated. And they are not "elderly, obese and have co-morbidities".
"All the Covid patients on ITU are unvaccinated at present, and we’ve had several deaths this week. None of them had significant comorbidities and were people you would usually expect to live another 30-plus years," he said"
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/two-top-doctors-explain-whats-22699578

There are risks in taking the vaccine even if very low.

Those risks are orders of magnitude less than the risk associated with NOT taking them.