Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?

[KnittyNorah]

What relevance do its origins - whatever they may be, be they a lab in China, pangolin stew or little green men from Mars - have wrt those who promote anti-vax beliefs?

 

[vickster]

What relevance do its origins - whatever they may be, be they a lab in China, pangolin stew or little green men from Mars - have wrt those who promote anti-vax beliefs?

Don't forget the bat chow mein

 

[C R]

What relevance do its origins - whatever they may be, be they a lab in China, pangolin stew or little green men from Mars - have wrt those who promote anti-vax beliefs?

I think the poster in question is furiously gish galloping.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I think the poster in question is furiously gish galloping.

Well I’d never heard that term before. Time for a gallop

 

[mjr]

Quebec to tax anti-vaxxers to reflect the increased cost of healthcare for them. https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...-quebec-as-health-system-struggles/ar-AASGP25

 

[farfromtheland]

I have now found the UK government advice on Myocarditis and Pericarditis after covid vaccination - I searched via a search engine after missing it on the govt website.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ination-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals
This was updated on December 7th and says
"In those aged under 18 years, the reported rate for heart inflammation (myocarditis and pericarditis) is 10 per million doses (first dose or unknown dose) of the Pfizer vaccine."
This is apparently for all cases of reported adverse reaction.

The two US studies it references are this,
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2783052
from August,
and this,
https://publications.aap.org/pediat...ated-Myocarditis-in?autologincheck=redirected
from November.

The November study involves 63 adolescents hospitalised between March and June in 16 institutions following Pfizer or Moderna vaccination, so I did some arithmetic.

Official statistics for US vaccination rates give this,
"As of July 16, 2021, approximately 8.9 million U.S. adolescents aged 12-17 years had received Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine."
- from
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e1.htm


So I have divided 8.9 million by 63 (which is not necessarily a total figure, but a figure from 1 study) and I get very close to 1 hospitalised case per 141 thousand adolescents vaccinated, which is 10 per 1.4 million.

Is this acceptable for serious adverse reaction? I don't know. I think we need more and better research, preferably in the UK where hospitalisation rates are likely to be higher as we have free healthcare.

 

[Johnno260]

It’s starting point is kinda irrelevant, we just need to react and treat people.

Also man isn’t as good as Mother Nature at creating things, I would argue if it was man made then there would be markers in the genome which has been mapped that would show it had been tampered with.

 

[Rocky]

I have now found the UK government advice on Myocarditis and Pericarditis after covid vaccination - I searched via a search engine after missing it on the govt website.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ination-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals
This was updated on December 7th and says
"In those aged under 18 years, the reported rate for heart inflammation (myocarditis and pericarditis) is 10 per million doses (first dose or unknown dose) of the Pfizer vaccine."
This is apparently for all cases of reported adverse reaction.

The two US studies it references are this,
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2783052
from August,
and this,
https://publications.aap.org/pediat...ated-Myocarditis-in?autologincheck=redirected
from November.

The November study involves 63 adolescents hospitalised following Pfizer or Moderna vaccination, so I did some arithmetic.

Official statistics for US vaccination rates give this,
"As of July 16, 2021, approximately 8.9 million U.S. adolescents aged 12-17 years had received Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine."
- from
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e1.htm


So I have divided 8.9 million by 63 (which is not necessarily a total figure, but a figure from 1 study) and I get very close to 1 hospitalised case per 141 thousand adolescents vaccinated.

Interesting, thanks for doing the maths.

One question - how many of those adolescents died from the myocarditis? Is that something you’ve got figures for?

 

[Johnno260]

I have now found the UK government advice on Myocarditis and Pericarditis after covid vaccination - I searched via a search engine after missing it on the govt website.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ination-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals
This was updated on December 7th and says
"In those aged under 18 years, the reported rate for heart inflammation (myocarditis and pericarditis) is 10 per million doses (first dose or unknown dose) of the Pfizer vaccine."
This is apparently for all cases of reported adverse reaction.

The two US studies it references are this,
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2783052
from August,
and this,
https://publications.aap.org/pediat...ated-Myocarditis-in?autologincheck=redirected
from November.

The November study involves 63 adolescents hospitalised following Pfizer or Moderna vaccination, so I did some arithmetic.

Official statistics for US vaccination rates give this,
"As of July 16, 2021, approximately 8.9 million U.S. adolescents aged 12-17 years had received Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine."
- from
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e1.htm


So I have divided 8.9 million by 63 (which is not necessarily a total figure, but a figure from 1 study) and I get very close to 1 hospitalised case per 141 thousand adolescents vaccinated.

Ignoring the fact it’s a higher risk from the infection.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...fter-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/amp/

 

[farfromtheland]

Interesting, thanks for doing the maths.

One question - how many of those adolescents died from the myocarditis? Is that something you’ve got figures for?

No I haven't. Such heart problems are one of the effects of long term covid though, and their seriousness can have implications for future fitness, especially in sports.

Ignoring the fact it’s a higher risk from the infection.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...fter-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/amp/

I wasn't ignoring anything, but my calculations were conservative whereas the UK govt website information doesn't quite add up, unless a very high proportion of adverse reactions were serious enough to be hospitalised.
The big question for me is how can we improve our health overall - treatments and risk factors are under-researched, and not much in the public domain.

Parents, and I am one, have ethical responsibilities to their children. Vaccination is a conscious decision, and deserves to have full information for it to be made.

 

[farfromtheland]

With respect, search engine optimisation happens, and relying on one particular search engine for fact checking is not optimal.

I also read quite a few questions from Milzy.

 

[MontyVeda]

With respect, search engine optimisation happens, and relying on one particular search engine for fact checking is not optimal.

I also read quite a few questions from Milzy.

You seem to have a similar grasp of what SEO is and does as Milzy's grasp of vaccinology.

 

[Alex321]

With respect, search engine optimisation happens, and relying on one particular search engine for fact checking is not optimal.

Relying on ANY search engine for fact checking is way off optimal.

You use the search engine to find the things you then use to fact check.

I also read quite a few questions from Milzy.

He has posted a significant number of things recently as being evidence for his views, then they have been found to be of very dubious value at best as soon as people start looking at them.

And I did say "rarely", not never.

 

[Alex321]

I think it very possible it escaped from the lab, even probable. But not proven.

And also completely and utterly irrelevant to this thread. Just posted above as a diversionary tactic.

 

[Johnno260]

Ah for the people using the guy questioning Javid…. Follow the money, follow the money.

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs...hour-at-private-breathlessness-clinic-1393143

Conflict of interest much? Going a little Wakefield there lol.