Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?

[KnittyNorah]

Thanks Ajax your posts are always informative.

I misread and replied badly to Dix, obviously mass vaccination can’t continue forever, we just need to boost people annually who require it, and offer vaccination to those who decide to take it, but only if the data says it’s required.

I would like them to post some more information about natural protection as I have seen some articles suggest it can wane quickly and one from John Hopkins said 1-5 may not receive anything.

I would also like to see better communication in the future, I think that’s a huge lesson to be learnt from this whole situation, posts like yours and some others have been more helpful and informative.

There's a v. interesting article on the Zoe study here website about the duration, level etc of naturally-acquired immunity compared with vaccine-induced; it's dated last October so there might be changes due to it soon ...

 

[Arrowfoot]

I work with 2 people on the NHS front line. Should they really be sacked if they show immunity?

Emotive words - "front line" but it does not advance the argument. There should not be 2 sets of rules. Unless there is an underlying medical condition that allows exemption, it should not be an option. It is also about patient safety. Immunity has recently sprung up and Djokovic is running along those lines. Well his first infection did not stop his second. Where do we go from here? We need to stop clutching at straws.

If they feel strongly, ask them to find a job where they are not in contact with people. 90% of Kings College Hospital staff have been vaccinated. Surely the 90% are not meeks or lambs to the slaughter, many for them are doctors and nurses.

We are all at the mercy of qualified experts. And many of us do so for the benefit of society as well as for us.

 

[Johnno260]

There's a v. interesting article on the Zoe study here website about the duration, level etc of naturally-acquired immunity compared with vaccine-induced; it's dated last October so there might be changes due to it soon ...

ah I’m glad you said ZOE as that’s one of the articles I had read, along with this John Hopkins one:

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea.../covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know

To me it’s seems as if natural protection was risky and the results seemed a little inconsistent.

 

[mjr]

Wish there was a daily test for heart disease ..... then maybe I would not be staring at the end of my life ...

Not daily, but there are tests for some types of heart problem. Some of them are incurable at present, so the main effect is you too can stare at the end of your life from the age of 8

 

[farfromtheland]

Emotive words - "front line" but it does not advance the argument. There should not be 2 sets of rules. Unless there is an underlying medical condition that allows exemption, it should not be an option. It is also about patient safety. Immunity has recently sprung up and Djokovic is running along those lines. Well his first infection did not stop his second. Where do we go from here? We need to stop clutching at straws.

If they feel strongly, ask them to find a job where they are not in contact with people. 90% of Kings College Hospital staff have been vaccinated. Surely the 90% are not meeks or lambs to the slaughter, many for them are doctors and nurses.

We are all at the mercy of qualified experts. And many of us do so for the benefit of society as well as for us.

That means yes, you think they should be sacked. A nurse in Accident and Emergencies can't exactly get a desk job. I think this is the front line by any standard. Adequate PPE is now in use there. I would rather ask why immunity testing is not offered? This is a question of good sense.

I am also more worried about the unqualified experts. Government advice on boosters, admittedly a different issue, is based on information from September, before Omicron.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...latestinsights/vaccines#vaccine-effectiveness

"Vaccination reduced the risk of infection during both the Alpha and Delta period. Two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine were more effective than one dose at preventing symptomatic infection. The booster vaccine provided over 90% protection against symptomatic infection in adults aged 50 years and over."

This is the September research the Government then cites for boosters,
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.15.21266341v1

I decided the Astra-Zeneca vaccine was well researched enough to rely on back in the spring. A Pfizer booster available now for a changed situation does not have this provenance.

I am not 'clutching at straws' to question the effectiveness of existing vaccines against Omicron. Pfizer themselves are researching a new vaccine expected to be tested by March. In the meantime long term T cell immunity from A-Z and/or resistance after infection have as good a chance of protecting us as anything else.

 

[mjr]

I am not 'clutching at straws' to question the effectiveness of existing vaccines against Omicron. Pfizer themselves are researching a new vaccine expected to be tested by March.

Development and testing of more vaccines only tells you that Pfizer develops vaccines, not anything about the current ones.

You appear to be clutching so many straws, it's difficult to see you over the bale.

In the meantime long term T cell immunity from A-Z and/or resistance after infection have as good a chance of protecting us as anything else.

I do hope not, at least past infection, because that seems to be pretty limited.

 

[winjim]

Please what is NHS front line?

 

[Alex321]

Please what is NHS front line?

The doctors and nurses treating people on a day-to-day basis.

 

[Time Waster]

They've gone to Australia now that they let them in. Only criteria is a tennis racket and arrogance!

 

[Cirrus]

Well, it appears IKEA have decided to only give statutory sick pay to those who have ti self isolate if they are un vaccinated and don't have a medical reason:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59930206

 

[Alex321]

Well, it appears IKEA have decided to only give statutory sick pay to those who have ti self isolate if they are un vaccinated and don't have a medical reason:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59930206

Seems reasonable to me.

On another topic (from that article), when did "workers" become "co-workers". I can sort of understand retail employers using the term "colleagues", but I really don't understand why that one.

 

[farfromtheland]

Development and testing of more vaccines only tells you that Pfizer develops vaccines, not anything about the current ones.
You appear to be clutching so many straws, it's difficult to see you over the bale.

I'm doing my best to read the source research carefully.

The importance of the body's T cell response as contrasted with in vitro antibody production is under-reported
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-...n-why-immunity-is-about-more-than-antibodies/
"Potential for long-term immunity
Early research suggests that the antibodies in people infected with SARS-CoV-2 dropped significantly within 2 to 3 months [21,22], causing concern that humoral immunity against the virus may decline rapidly. However, it is a normal part of the immune response that antibody levels fall after an infection has resolved [23]. For example, in seasonal coronavirus infections, antibodies start to decline at about a week after infection and typically only last for about a year [24]. It should also be noted that memory T and B cells are formed after infection [25,26]; these can be reactivated when another infection with the same virus occurs and could provide long-lasting immunity. A preliminary study that has not yet undergone peer review has shown that memory T and B cells were found in patients with mild COVID-19 symptoms who had recovered and that these cells persisted, suggesting the potential for longer-term immunity."

Omicron is new territory. The research is not in yet.

 

[winjim]

The doctors and nurses treating people on a day-to-day basis.

Nobody else? Just doctors and nurses?



Edit: listing things which belong in a category is not defining that category. Anyway carry on.

 

[farfromtheland]

Nobody else? Just doctors and nurses?
Edit: listing things which belong in a category is not defining that category. Anyway carry on.

I used the phrase, to mean all NHS workers in direct contact with patients needing urgent treatment, especially in Accident and Emergency departments of hospitals.

There is also an implication of being more vulnerable in that work to the risks of infection (not the spread because of PPE) and of being those we need most when we as patients are most in need and also of being likely to have access to in depth information about covid, whether from experience or research.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Well, it appears IKEA have decided to only give statutory sick pay to those who have ti self isolate if they are un vaccinated and don't have a medical reason:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59930206

I originally misunderstood this post
I thought it was saying only the unvaccinated would get sick pay
It actually says they vaccinated get the normal sick pay of £400-450 (depending on location) and the UNvaccinated get the minimum - which is SSP at £96.35

just to be clear in case someone else does what I did!
My wife says several other firms have announced this

I presume people with genuine medical reasons to be unvaccinated get a pass out for this!