Pedrosanchezo
Veteran
- Location
- Perthshire, scotland
All i'll say is Ten Dam is lucky Chris Froome and Quintana are not on Strava!!
Tour de France 2013 *spoilers*
- Thread starter Noodley
- Start date
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Herzog
Swinglish Mountain Goat
- Location
- Bern, Switzerland
LTD absolutely blasted pretty much all of my KOMs during one stage of the Tour de Suisse...I deleted my Strava account in a fit of petulance afterwards and have since haboured a totally misplaced grudge against him!
Mr Haematocrit
msg me on kik for android
- Location
- Out of the saddle
Just read some utter nonsense elsewhere.... It effectively says that if anyone ever beats Pharmstrong's times, then that is proof alone that they are doping/cheating/rocket fuelled.
Things move on. Things improve. DB says that marginal gains were never going to compete with a quick fix of (eg) 10% through EPO but if there are 11 marginal gains????? Or just call me a simpleton?
In this modern era, what would Sir Roger be able to run the mile in????? I wonder...... and it won't be a mrgin under 4 minutes!!!! And I bet he was/would be running clean
Froome beat Armstrong's time from 2005 by 25 seconds and this was a time when Armstrong was known to be on the juice. So with a higher Haematocrit level Armstrong was substantially slower.
Not at all evidence but it certainly puts froomestrongs performance into perspective.
StuAff
Silencing his legs regularly
- Location
- Portsmouth
Sorry, hadn't spotted that.
Is that 25 seconds over an hour long climb? Wind speed and direction? Did LA have a superdom pacing him half way up the climb? Are LA and CF even comparable types of riders?
It's comparing the incomparable.
I am not a huge fan of CF, but this lambasting he's getting purely on the grounds of performance is complete pissing in the wind.
Boris Bajic
Guest
I'm pretty neutral about doping in pro-cycling (although it isn't the cool stance and never really was).
I think one always suspected (then gravely suspected, then knew) that all the greats of the Indurain, Pantani, Riis, Ullrich, Armstrong era were dirty. Roche, too, and Fignon came clean. It's a long, old time and we all know it went back further than that. And we know it wasn't only the serial winners... It was team-deep.
I think Wiggins (not just for his 2012 results on the road) is an absolute hero. I dare say Froome will approach those levels, in achievement if not in the eliciting of public affection. He is clearly a cut above.
Nonetheless, there are still riders in the peloton who were getting major results and top-three finishes in the 'dark days' (Evans et al) and times are still pretty quick. The time up Ventoux yesterday need not be a marker, but it isn't a 'clean' indicator either.
One can point to the exhaustion hitting Sky after impressive days (Porte the obvious example - a trouper par excellence). But for all that, I would not be even a tiny bit surprised if one or two teams hadn't perfected (or optimised) a system of micro-dosing PEDs in a way that gave some marginal improvement but kept blood levels within a prescribed window. It's what I'd do.
Interesting that some panto villains are finding things tough (A Schleck, A Contador, A Sample). It looks like a much cleaner tour than we enjoyed (and I did enjoy them) in the past two decades... and I hope it is.
But none of us knows. A lot of opinion is based on fanship. Note the passionate defences of Evans (a hero of mine). People absolutely insist that he was clean and get angrily defensive of him, calling doubters trolls (amusingly). This despite his switch to road being made under the auspices of T Rominger, in consultation with M Ferrari... and despite his quite extraordinary list of jerseys and top-ten finishes in the super-dirty decade he was first racing on the road. He has a lovely, shy smile, so he cannot be a doper. Can he?
I hope this TdF is clean. I love the TdF, but I think it would be naive to think that all the money and effort that's gone into doping for the past several decades has just walked away and admitted defeat. Would you? People have invested a lot in this deception.
Pantani, Ulrich and Indurain remain my heroes as much as Evans and Voeckler are... I have no heroes who are not flawed. I think pro-cycling is cleaner today - and perhaps cleaner than many of the 'clean' sports. But that's a comparative adjective, not an absolute.
Back on topic... yesterday's result (and the hellish moonscape last few km) were exactly what I did not foresee. Froome deserves a nice rest day. He was simply sensational. As was Quintana... and Chavanel. Not what I predicted and not really what I wanted... but stunning.
I think one always suspected (then gravely suspected, then knew) that all the greats of the Indurain, Pantani, Riis, Ullrich, Armstrong era were dirty. Roche, too, and Fignon came clean. It's a long, old time and we all know it went back further than that. And we know it wasn't only the serial winners... It was team-deep.
I think Wiggins (not just for his 2012 results on the road) is an absolute hero. I dare say Froome will approach those levels, in achievement if not in the eliciting of public affection. He is clearly a cut above.
Nonetheless, there are still riders in the peloton who were getting major results and top-three finishes in the 'dark days' (Evans et al) and times are still pretty quick. The time up Ventoux yesterday need not be a marker, but it isn't a 'clean' indicator either.
One can point to the exhaustion hitting Sky after impressive days (Porte the obvious example - a trouper par excellence). But for all that, I would not be even a tiny bit surprised if one or two teams hadn't perfected (or optimised) a system of micro-dosing PEDs in a way that gave some marginal improvement but kept blood levels within a prescribed window. It's what I'd do.
Interesting that some panto villains are finding things tough (A Schleck, A Contador, A Sample). It looks like a much cleaner tour than we enjoyed (and I did enjoy them) in the past two decades... and I hope it is.
But none of us knows. A lot of opinion is based on fanship. Note the passionate defences of Evans (a hero of mine). People absolutely insist that he was clean and get angrily defensive of him, calling doubters trolls (amusingly). This despite his switch to road being made under the auspices of T Rominger, in consultation with M Ferrari... and despite his quite extraordinary list of jerseys and top-ten finishes in the super-dirty decade he was first racing on the road. He has a lovely, shy smile, so he cannot be a doper. Can he?
I hope this TdF is clean. I love the TdF, but I think it would be naive to think that all the money and effort that's gone into doping for the past several decades has just walked away and admitted defeat. Would you? People have invested a lot in this deception.
Pantani, Ulrich and Indurain remain my heroes as much as Evans and Voeckler are... I have no heroes who are not flawed. I think pro-cycling is cleaner today - and perhaps cleaner than many of the 'clean' sports. But that's a comparative adjective, not an absolute.
Back on topic... yesterday's result (and the hellish moonscape last few km) were exactly what I did not foresee. Froome deserves a nice rest day. He was simply sensational. As was Quintana... and Chavanel. Not what I predicted and not really what I wanted... but stunning.
zizou
Veteran
+1 the difference in VAM times can be pretty meaningless because it ignores so many other factors which have a huge impact whether it be the weather or what is happening in the race. In any case its all very well comparing with a cherry picked time from the Armstrong bogeyman but what about others? According to the science in sport guys Froomes time up Ventoux was slower than Wiggins in 2009 (and therefore also slower than Contador, Armstrong, Andy and Frank Schleck, Pellizoti, Kreuziger and Nibali who all started the climb in the same group).
Radchenister
Veteran
- Location
- Avon
So in summary BB, you still suspect doping is taking place?
Just wondering, why is no one questioning quintana?
He rode away from everyone early
Froome - dragged half way up
Quintana - solo'd
Froome -28 more muscle maturity
Quintana -23 not at peak age....
Froome - grimace at the top
Quintana - no sign of pain
Froome - possible doper
Quintana - super climber.
For the record I think both are clean.
He rode away from everyone early
Froome - dragged half way up
Quintana - solo'd
Froome -28 more muscle maturity
Quintana -23 not at peak age....
Froome - grimace at the top
Quintana - no sign of pain
Froome - possible doper
Quintana - super climber.
For the record I think both are clean.
jarlrmai
Veteran
Factors to consider
Tailwind with Movistar leadout to the base of the mountain helped the riders speed and probably conserved the energy for climb?
It was warmer for Froome than Armstrong so better for his muscles and O2?
He apparently needed oxygen after the race as did Quintana (did Armstrong?) is this common?
Tailwind with Movistar leadout to the base of the mountain helped the riders speed and probably conserved the energy for climb?
It was warmer for Froome than Armstrong so better for his muscles and O2?
He apparently needed oxygen after the race as did Quintana (did Armstrong?) is this common?
Boris Bajic
Guest
I think many people suspect it. I have no way of knowing and I hope it isn't.
I think I was responding in a way to the black & white view of 'dirty era - clean era' that one picks up sometimes.
Also to the similar 'dirty rider - clean rider' partisanship among some fans and devotees.
I do believe that Sir Brailsford's mention of small marginal gains adding up may be some sort of jokey reference - and if it is I wish him well.
I love the spectacle of it all - particularly a stage like yesterday's. Awesome and impressive stuff.
I also recall the bitter, furious, beyond-passionate defences and accusations coming from the LA Fanboy camp right up to the moment when he coughed up. I see the same degree of certainty, angry defence and blind faith in absolute cleanliness at Sky, but it is viewed as cold analytical judgement, not swivel-eyed fanboy love. Not on these pages, but elsewhere. We all see and hear it.
Vive le Tour!
smutchin
Cat 6 Racer
- Location
- The Red Enclave
In other news (ie actual news), Pinot has retired.
He's the real deal, supremely talented climber. Been showing what he is capable of for years. And he did get accused by some bungling American reporters during the Vuelta Catalunya earlier this year...
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g2660DUHobM#at=38
smutchin
Cat 6 Racer
- Location
- The Red Enclave
Quintana is also about 10kg lighter than Froome, fwiw (or 14kg lighter, depending on your sources).
Edited because of brain failure, see later post.
