The new improved Lance Armstrong discussion thread.*

[Norm]

Careful Greg, I got labelled a troll for using that smiley

Thus showing you have not only completely missed the point which Shaun and I were trying to make, and also showing how sensitive some can become when the word 'troll' is used.

For the record, you were not labelled a troll. One post was used as an example of how the word troll should be used with care and your response, above continues that tradition.

 

[rich p]

Thus showing you have not only completely missed the point which Shaun and I were trying to make, and also showing how sensitive some can become when the word 'troll' is used.

For the record, you were not labelled a troll. One post was used as an example of how the word troll should be used with care and your response, above continues that tradition.

Give it a rest Norm, please.

 

[MacB]

I don't want anyone to suffer, as such. I want the cheating arses, especially, of the suit wearers thrown out of professional sport. Forever. See Shoeless Joe Jackson et al.

no it was a poor choice of words on my part, what I was trying to convey wasn't a desire for vengeance but rather a level of redress that actually acts as a future deterrent. I'm also not seeing this just for cycling, or even pro sport, but in the wider context. I'm tired of seeing frauds and cheats, whether contrite or defiant, walking away with so much of the proceeds of their deceit intact. Plus, as you say, being able to continue to be influential in the very industry they perpetrated their deceit.

To me this sends a multi tiered message which starts with don't get caught and moves on to if you do get caught make it big enough to have been worthwhile.

To illustrate, in the context of LA, I think he should be fined the entirety of his earnings, in every area, from the point at which he first cheated. But I'd expand that to every person involved above a certain level across the teams and governing bodies.

 

[Norm]

Give it a rest Norm, please.

Do you mean 'Give it a rest as long as you don't interrupt our complaining' or 'Give it a rest and let me have the last word', as my post was a direct response to yours.

 

[PaulB]

Indeed, Mac, which is why the UCI needs to be cleansed in this process but somehow it's difficult to see Fat Pat falling on his sword unless there's clear and unequivocal proof. If he and Verbruggen aren't forced out then the cleaner peloton will have to be team and rider led and Greg doesn't trust those bastards! see above!

Says a man who has run a Bob Graham!


That's nowt to do with this thread or those comments, I just think, nay BELIEVE, that more people should be aware that Mr. P did a Bob Graham round! A BOB GRAHAM ROUND!!!! If you don't know what one of these is or think it may be slightly less than a super-human achievement, then I strongly suggest you look up what it entails because believe me, this is the stuff of true legends.

 

[rich p]

Do you mean 'Give it a rest as long as you don't interrupt our complaining' or 'Give it a rest and let me have the last word', as my post was a direct response to yours.

I have no idea what you're on about. You seem to have a bit of a personal antagonism towards me though. As I said earlier I respect the Mods and their difficult job and I have no desire to get into semantics with you.
I'd rather discuss the topic not the discussion but you seem to be intent on derailing it at the moment.

 

[Red Light]

Indeed, Mac, which is why the UCI needs to be cleansed in this process but somehow it's difficult to see Fat Pat falling on his sword unless there's clear and unequivocal proof. If he and Verbruggen aren't forced out then the cleaner peloton will have to be team and rider led and Greg doesn't trust those bastards! see above!

It's should be very easy to prove one way or the other whether UCI colluded in suppressing a positive EPO test. We know the year and race and athlete and someone just needs to go and audit the Swiss lab. The Swiss are nothing if not meticulous in record keeping. At the moment all we have is hearsay and denial. Why doesn't somebody go and get the evidence?

 

[Red Light]

We can be reasonably sure that he is dishonest. Read the bit in "It's not about the bike" where he describes how awful it was to have to produce the semen for freezing without thinking "yeah right".

I can think of a lot of less awful ways but they won't work for that purpose I can see it being a pretty awful experience not for the process but for everything that goes with it in the circumstances. This is it and you are off for major surgery that will leave you sterile and may leave you impotent and you may not have long to live either.

 

[Red Light]

All true, but that wasn't what was wrote.

Its a long time since I read his book and I don't carry it around with me physically or in my memory. So I will take your word about what was writ.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

To illustrate, in the context of LA, I think he should be fined the entirety of his earnings, in every area, from the point at which he first cheated. But I'd expand that to every person involved above a certain level across the teams and governing bodies.

This, plus interest. As a minimum. And that doesn't even go half way; you can't confiscate the doors that were opened, the experiences that were gained, the favours that were given, etc., etc.. to every lying, conniving, cheating man jack of 'em.

 

[Crankarm]

Why don't the UCI just declare an amnesty for years up to say 2007 on the basis thay everyone was on some happy pill or wonder drug and that they, other senior figures and other bodies in cycling connived and colluded with this and they UCI now want to draw a line under it. Period. No wins would be erased, no cyclists banned etc nor monies recovered just the knowledge that these were the "dark years". However Bertie still felt he needed to take some clenbuterol so doping is never going to go away. Perhaps there should be a C sample taken as well as A and B which would be held in perpetuity. Testing needs to be massively tightened up. They should have more holes in them than a sieve.

Just my 2p worth.

 

[rich p]

Why don't the UCI just declare an amnesty for years up to say 2007 on the basis thay everyone was on some happy pill or wonder drug and that they, other senior figures and other bodies in cycling connived and colluded with this and they UCI now want to draw a line under it. Period. No wins would be erased, no cyclists banned etc nor monies recovered just the knowledge that these were the "dark years". However Bertie still felt he needed to take some clenbuterol so doping is never going to go away. Perhaps there should be a C sample taken as well as A and B which would be held in perpetuity. Testing needs to be massively tightened up. They should have more holes in them than a sieve.

Just my 2p worth.

Reading the other day that they now have a test for HGH, and 2 Paralympians were caught by it, I wondered whether there would be any retrospective testing of stored samples.

 

[Cycleops]

Why don't they stage a 'drugs enhanced' tour, that way we can see whose drugs are the most effective!

 

[Noodley]

Why don't they stage a 'drugs enhanced' tour, that way we can see whose drugs are the most effective!

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGI8YNa5f-M

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Which part of riders damaging their long term health doesn't bother you?

I did think you were a fan of nannying. Many sports damage the long-term health prospects of the participants to a greater or lesser degree, often via actions which are intrinsic to the enjoyment of the sport by participants and spectator alike. Yet society is happy for these sports to continue.

Morally what is the difference between someone, I dunno, getting brain damage from being repeatedly punched in the head in a boxing ring versus getting an equivalent injury from doping on a bike?