The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[Mugshot]

don't agree with that - and think the accusation is out of order. OK he's unconvinced, maybe contrary but I believe he's participating in good faith

He's side stepping an awful lot of stuff though.

 

[Profpointy]

He's side stepping an awful lot of stuff though.

yes, but he's pulled back from rudeness when things were deteriorating and continued in a civilised way, helping this thread to not degenerate which given the lenght and history of similar threads is astonishing

People who are wrong but act in good faith are what debates are anout.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Again down to reducing risks

I am much faster down hill on the trikes where I have a more stable base, no fall if a wheel loses grip and you can brake harder if required. I do speeds on these that I would never attempt on the tourers, Brompton or the two wheel recumbents

Whereas I'm just stupid.

Above 40mph my B does tank slappers. I don't go there.
My tourer, downhill on tarmac, probably is the fastest and most stable bike I have at stupid speeds, I've even overtaken a recumbent trike downhill on it.

Of course the fastest I've ever recorded on my GPS on a bike was on an XC mtb on a grassed over Alpine ski run....

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Why? Who says you are right and I'm wrong, I'm wearing a helmet when riding my bike, you are not, I may get some protection from it when I fall off, you will not get any protection from it as you are not wearing one.
We had someone yesterday saying his helmet saved his head from a nasty clout with a tree and he was roundly ridiculed and told he should have taken avoiding action and not hit it in the first place. Maybe it is you who is doing the arguing?

Great argument for knee pads and elbow pads, spinal protectors, and why not, a whole suit of armour...

 

[Profpointy]

Great argument for knee pads and elbow pads, spinal protectors, and why not, a whole suit of armour...

wrong argument - helmet wearing is perfectly practical, motorbike leathers or whatever not so much.

The question is whether the (natural) assumption that a helmet helps is actually true.

I keep banging on about Australia, but ..

 

[GrumpyGregry]

wrong argument - helmet wearing is perfectly practical, motorbike leathers or whatever not so much.

The question is whether the (natural) assumption that a helmet helps is actually true.

I keep banging on about Australia, but ..

What is impractical about knee pads and elbow pads? Plenty of mtb-ers, skateboarders, roller bladers and long boarders wear them as a matter of course, along with a Tupperware lid.

 

[Profpointy]

What is impractical about knee pads and elbow pads? Plenty of mtb-ers, skateboarders, roller bladers and long boarders wear them as a matter of course, along with a Tupperware lid.

it's still a debating argument not a logical one. It's perfectly reasonable to have a set of safety aids and choose a subset based on practicality or convenience - no reason it has to be all or nothing.

..... but there's not point at all in safety aids that don't aid safety !

 

[Mugshot]

Presumably you have seen this, I doubt many brain surgeons cycle, but this one does. I would genuinely be interested in your thoughts. The video is quite fun too.
http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/brain-surgeon-theres-no-point-wearing-cycle-helmets/

Excellent video

 

[mjr]

Yep and accidents at all speeds inbetween, and you don't need to be riding in a dangerous manner to have an accident, I nearly had one on Sunday when my front wheel was nearly washed out by a slippery drain cover in town, I stayed on board luckily and didn't have to "test" my helmet against the road surface.

Bluntly: why weren't you looking where you were going? Did the drain cover run out in front of you?

Mjray said earlier that he had perhaps ridden at over 30mph twice since he started riding

No, since I started recording. (I'm a bit fed up with @Justinslow making stuff up instead of what I write.) I was faster when I was younger but we didn't have recording devices back then and I didn't have speedos on my road bikes (why would I?)

If you are frequently racing downhill at crazy speeds like that, then maybe a crash helmet is a good idea. I don't know, nor do I care, nor do I think many people do that while cycling, so it's a bad example to use when deciding on advice for the general public.

A plastic hat is a functionless ornament until the head impacts a surface and then it may (or may not) be beneficial

O were that were true! A plastic hat is a (small) weight to balance on top of your head and so on. Its function seems to be to make cycling more painful, less convenient and less fun.

Has anyone done a study to figure out how much energy is absorbed by the head worn perforated polystyrene ceiling tile (as worn by a hypothetical 100kg 2m tall cyclist going head over the bars)

a) if it survives an impact with a blunt object at 10mph, 15mph & 20mph (assuming said rider has scrubbed some speed off )

Based on http://www.bhsi.org/stdcomp.htm and http://www.bhsi.org/dropcalc.htm, I think you can count on an EN standard helmet absorbing 74 Joules. The impacts at 10, 15 and 20mph would mean 50 Joules, 115 Joules and off their chart. That's with a 5kg head - I was never great at biology so I'm not sure if that's reasonable for a 100kg person.

b) if it suffers catastrophic structural failure, as most seem to do in "my helmet saved my life" photo's after an impact with a blunt object at the same speeds

Or similar?

and then hypothesised the degree to which the amount of energy absorbed, in both cases, is likely to reduce the likelihood of a brain injury?

Both of those include too many variables to calculate and I don't know of such studies. I think I remember reading in general medical literature (including situations where heads are hit other than when falling from a cycle) that brain injuries aren't only caused by the impact but things such as deceleration and rotation may cause injury even though a crash helmet survives.

I belong to a bike club and know a fair few riders, not one would hold your views regarding helmets

A bike club that recommends helmets (mostly - sometimes they're "compulsory" and sometimes they're "strongly advised") and presents them as near-ubiquitous in its publications is unlikely to attract many helmet sceptics, is it?

I've asked a couple of people at the local all-welcome group not to badger others about helmets - is it coincidence that both came from racing clubs which compel people to wear helmets on non-racing rides? I don't badger the helmet-wearers, so I feel they shouldn't badger majority riders.

wrong argument - helmet wearing is perfectly practical

Oh no it isn't! (Crikey, is it panto season already?) As well as the expense of purchase and regular replacement, bouncing a small weight on top of your head, being too hot in summer (plenty posts on here from helmet-wearers about sweaty heads) and too cold in winter (thanks to all those air vents), making a bigger target to catch branches and stuff on, helmets are a nuisance to carry around at the destination, making sure that you don't bang it into things or - heavens forbid! - drop it onto the ground.

Crash helmets are an excellent way to discourage casual cycling. If we made it compulsory to carry a football-sized fragile object around every time you'd parked your car away from home, I think we could reduce casual motoring and improve air quality no end!

 

[Profpointy]

ah but as pedestrian helmets are equally valid, you'd simply keep wearing it

(sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[Mugshot]

ah but as pedestrian helmets are equally valid, you'd simply keep wearing it

Maybe some kind of catch all, utility style helmet could be considered. Get the boffins to sort out the design and effectiveness then you could simply slip it on your head before you get out of bed in the morning and l leave it on all day, no matter what everyday activity you were doing. Perhaps we could put some type of unique identification mark on them, this could help reduce the likelihood of them being nicked and also help identify the individual should the need arise.

 

[Mugshot]

Are you mad? What about the risk of hitting your head on the bedstead before getting out of bed?

Dagnabbit, you've managed to spot the one flaw in my idea!

 

[classic33]

I don't know anyone personally who has helmet views such as yourselves and I belong to a bike club and know a fair few riders, not one would hold your views regarding helmets

is that a fact, yet they are supposedly fit for purpose where cycle helmets are not because of the speed they are tested at........

Follow the link, it was put there with that in mind.

 

[classic33]

Why is it a shame? They MAY help us when we have an accident.

So you'll wear one when you're walking?
Taking another hobby into consideration for this. Advisable in places to wear a helmet on approach(walk) to a climb in some areas. They may prevent injuries before you've even started.

 

[classic33]

Dagnabbit, you've managed to spot the one flaw in my idea!

What about hitting the head whilst asleep!