The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[Mugshot]

As to the Australian studies, yes I have seen them, but what holds true in another quite different country may not hold true in Great Britain, afteral their road systems are far superior to ours based more on American style grid systems, they have less population for a given land mass etc etc. Remember how young their society is in the greater scheme of things.

I have wondered the same thing myself, whether the two countries are directly comparable. However what does seem to be beyond debate is the catastrophic effects that helmet legislation had on cycling numbers and also the fact that the reduction in head injuries did not fall by the same percentage. I see no reason why we can't relate this to the UK. For example, and I've been ridiculed by some for saying this before, young adults and in particular young women are particularly image conscious, it's a group we should be encouraging, yet a mandatory helmet law does the opposite. Here's a quote from one Australian study;

When the laws were introduced in the early 1990s, cycling trips declined by 30-40 per cent overall, and up to 80 per cent in some demographic groups, such as secondary school-aged females.

Even if the wearing of helmets is not mandatory the more people that there are wearing them, the less people cycle (viewing it as a risky pastime) and the less people there are cycling the less safe it is for the remaining cyclists

 

[MontyVeda]

It looks like a misjudgement, rather than an "accident". Where was https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/the-cyclechat-great-helmet-debate.187059/post-3941763 "roundly ridiculed"? I'm failing to see it, but maybe that's just my brass neck.

I asked why the cyclist didn't simply duck his head to avoid the foliage... since over hanging foliage is usually held by a branch or two, the fact the the cyclist didn't consider this i find slightly ridiculous... does that count?

as for @Justinslow 's anecdote about the metal drain cover that nearly took him out... I've had a similar scare in wet conditions and have since learned to avoid them. I've come off several times in recent years, but rather than go and buy a helmet, I've sussed out what I did wrong and have adjusted my riding style accordingly (i.e. I take certain corners slower). Off course there are still the unknowns which may result in a head injury, but those unknowns also exist when I'm a pedestrian or a passenger in a motor vehicle... I could adopt some sort of PPE just in case, yet i choose not too as frankly, I'd be roundly ridiculed.

 

[Profpointy]

Are you still ignoring the poster yesterday who hit his head on a branch and stated how his helmet saved him from injury? Why was he roundly ridiculed and told to avoid the branch in the first place? It was an accident.
As to the Australian studies, yes I have seen them, but what holds true in another quite different country may not hold true in Great Brirain, afteral their road systems are far superior to ours based more on American style grid systems, they have less population for a given land mass etc etc. Remember how young their society is in the greater scheme of things.

to answer the first point - ok there was a bit of flippant answering (but not from me). I'm happy to accept a helmet helped in that particular instance - but a slightly different scenario a helmet would have turned a miss into a hit (I believe one of my accidents may have been a hit if I'd been helmeted). and in another scenario the rotation / leverage made a hit wirse or whatever. I do not get why you pooh pooh the australian thing - but the conclusion I came came to is that the good and bad (must) balance out else we'd see a net benefit

 

[totallyfixed]

If the impact was sufficiently strong enough to split his helmet open and then glance off as he continued on his way due to his forward speed but not damage his head I would say his helmet did its job.

He must have a hell of a strong neck.

 

[ufkacbln]

Has anyone done a study to figure out how much energy is absorbed by the head worn perforated polystyrene ceiling tile (as worn by a hypothetical 100kg 2m tall cyclist going head over the bars)

a) if it survives an impact with a blunt object at 10mph, 15mph & 20mph (assuming said rider has scrubbed some speed off )
b) if it suffers catastrophic structural failure, as most seem to do in "my helmet saved my life" photo's after an impact with a blunt object at the same speeds

Or similar?

and then hypothesised the degree to which the amount of energy absorbed, in both cases, is likely to reduce the likelihood of a brain injury?

Perhaps a little light hearted but the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute in the US (Pro helmet , but with a grasp of
reality)came up with some work on concussion and designed this helmet:

 

[Justinslow]

I have wondered the same thing myself, whether the two countries are directly comparable. However what does seem to be beyond debate is the catastrophic effects that helmet legislation had on cycling numbers and also the fact that the reduction in head injuries did not fall by the same percentage. I see no reason why we can't relate this to the UK. For example, and I've been ridiculed by some for saying this before, young adults and in particular young women are particularly image conscious, it's a group we should be encouraging, yet a mandatory helmet law does the opposite. Here's a quote from one Australian study;

When the laws were introduced in the early 1990s, cycling trips declined by 30-40 per cent overall, and up to 80 per cent in some demographic groups, such as secondary school-aged females.

Even if the wearing of helmets is not mandatory the more people that there are wearing them, the less people cycle (viewing it as a risky pastime) and the less people there are cycling the less safe it is for the remaining cyclists

Ok, but the next generation (today's kids) will be so used to wearing helmets that they won't even think twice about what they look like, it will be (and is already to the younger generation) completely normal attire, just like it's completely normal to use I pads, smart phones etc etc. "The past was yours but the futures mine" as a great band once sung.

 

[Mugshot]

Ok, but the next generation (today's kids) will be so used to wearing helmets that they won't even think twice about what they look like, it will be (and is already to the younger generation) completely normal attire, just like it's completely normal to use I pads, smart phones etc etc. "The past was yours but the futures mine" as a great band once sung.

No, because it's instilled in them the idea that cycing is dangerous. It's also instilled in the minds of their parents so it's quite possible that they never get a bike in the first place.

 

[mjr]

Interesting comparisons can be drawn with The Netherlands, where a huge cycling population pretty much don't wear helmets but the small number who do have more head injuries.

I think the helmet-wearing minority in the Netherlands is probably small enough (I expect it's among the lowest in Europe which would be 10% but it's missing from my usual reference table and I didn't find a good figure - http://cyclehelmets.org/1261.html claims 0.5% which I doubt and it cites no source) that under-10s and helmet-compelled racers will distort the figures.

 

[Justinslow]

I asked why the cyclist didn't simply duck his head to avoid the foliage... since over hanging foliage is usually held by a branch or two, the fact the the cyclist didn't consider this i find slightly ridiculous... does that count?

as for @Justinslow 's anecdote about the metal drain cover that nearly took him out... I've had a similar scare in wet conditions and have since learned to avoid them. I've come off several times in recent years, but rather than go and buy a helmet, I've sussed out what I did wrong and have adjusted my riding style accordingly (i.e. I take certain corners slower). Off course there are still the unknowns which may result in a head injury, but those unknowns also exist when I'm a pedestrian or a passenger in a motor vehicle... I could adopt some sort of PPE just in case, yet i choose not too as frankly, I'd be roundly ridiculed.

Absolutely, next time I'll be on my guard for the drain cover, whilst changing lanes on a one way system, scanning for cars and other hazards, but guess what, learn by our mistakes as you have stated, some times accidents just happen. Some of your notions that all accidents can be prevented is farcical, we are not computer controlled robots. I don't think I could replicate this set of circumstances whilst "walking down the street" and if I had crashed maybe my helmet would have helped protect my head.
But I've said all this before.

 

[mjr]

And what a pain it would be having to carry a helmet with you at all times, in case you suddenly decide to hire a borisbike or similar.

I've done that. I dropped the helmet on the floor in the rush to my train after docking the bike. I didn't replace it and kept wearing it. I made a mistake.

 

[summerdays]

Ok, but the next generation (today's kids) will be so used to wearing helmets that they won't even think twice about what they look like, it will be (and is already to the younger generation) completely normal attire, just like it's completely normal to use I pads, smart phones etc etc. "The past was yours but the futures mine" as a great band once sung.

No some kids wear them when they are young and their parents make them (not all parents do), then as they near the teens helmet use drops, though some parents still try to get them to wear them so they end up slung over the handlebars of their bikes. So the saga continues.

 

[Justinslow]

Except that the Australian experience tells us that the helmet issue stops children riding at all.

Do you believe that here then, take a peak at "your kids on bikes pics". Kids don't ride bikes just like they don't go fishing because of I pads, computer games, apathy and scared parents.

 

[Mugshot]

Absolutely, next time I'll be on my guard for the drain cover,

The issue for me here is that you are using an example of NOT falling off to try to prove the point that IF you had fallen off and IF you had bumped your head as a consequence then a helmet MAY have helped. You didn't fall off and you didn't bump your head, so your helmet was of zero use.

 

[Mugshot]

Do you believe that here then, take a peak at "your kids on bikes pics". Kids don't ride bikes just like they don't go fishing because of I pads, computer games, apathy and scared parents.

Why are the parents scared?

 

[mjr]

Ok, but the next generation (today's kids) will be so used to wearing helmets that they won't even think twice about what they look like, it will be (and is already to the younger generation) completely normal attire, just like it's completely normal to use I pads, smart phones etc etc. "The past was yours but the futures mine" as a great band once sung.

This is a danger that worries me. The helmet-wearing minority have a disproportionate influence throughout the state education sector, aided and abetted by a so-called "road safety education" approach that seems much happier to scare children out of the way of motorists than it is to try to get motorists to drive carefully near children. I guess this is mostly coordinated by government and motorists vote but children don't and by the time they do, they'll either have forgotten or internalised the sins committed against them. Some schools refuse to let children participate in cycle training or even park their cycles at school if they do not wear a helmet. Often the effect of this is not that children wear helmets more, it's that they cycle less, as in:

Except that the Australian experience tells us that the helmet issue stops children riding at all.