Team BKool CycleChat
- Thread starter Peteaud
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Runexeter
Senior Member
- Location
- Exeter, Devon, United Kingdom
gbrown
Geoff on Bkool
- Location
- South Somerset
v.2.15 is the version of the simulator, the trainer firmware version is different. For the Pro it is either v3.3 or v3.2 if you missed the withdrawn update (or v3.4 if you have the pre release like me).
The firmware version shows in the About Bkool in the Simultaor if you scroll down to the ANT+ section. It only seems to show properly if you do a manual pairing.
Geoff
gbrown
Geoff on Bkool
- Location
- South Somerset
Brave man, Bill is like the Terminator, he absolutely will not stop until you are dead (or wish you were) ...
Congrats on the Active 8, sounds like you really punished yourself!
And I went the other way, getting Bkool to dial in and make mine bloody harder ... man am I regretting that!
Geoff
gbrown
Geoff on Bkool
- Location
- South Somerset
I think the trainers get more realistic with each firmware, mine certainly did going to the new firmware, and then again with the pre-release, unless that was just Bkool's dial in and calibration check.
The only real way to check the trainers is to compare them directly with a calibrated power meter.
My powertap appears to show that mine at least is still not giving enough resistance at high wattages. At around 50W it gives too little resistance, at around 100W-200W it is about right and above around 200W it gives too little resistance, exaggerating the wattage figures by around 10-15% (it was worse before, more like 20-30%) and making it easier to keep the speed up. It's not that far off, as I can compare my real ride up Haytor at 29:30 at an easy pace with a first Virtual go at around 24 mins having lost weight and trained up a little and then a flat out race against you guys where I must be approaching my best possible time at around 21 mins. I have no delusions as to how capable a cyclist I am, no way would I keep up with the likes of Bill in real life, nor could I do a 24 hour race, so I guess in reality I could now perhaps get down to around 24-25 minutes up Haytor, so I don't think 21 minutes on the trainer is far off, being the expected 10%-15%.
Geoff
gbrown
Geoff on Bkool
- Location
- South Somerset
This is something I've thought long and hard about, and it is very hard to do. The figures you see on the bkool simulator must all be calculations that completely ignore the actual resistance the trainer is applying to the rear wheel, as there is no power meter in the unit. It must work out how much resistance should be applied from weight, gradient, an assumed aero drag, rolling resistance and drivetrain loss, then send a signal to the trainer firmware which sends a current to the electro magnets in the trainer and assume something close to the required resistance is achieved. It then must read the rpm of the roller in the trainer and use it's diameter to calculate the speed, use the calculated speed and requested resistance to calculate the power (which is only for information, as the calculated speed will determine how long the ride takes). Even if the applied resistance if wildly different to the desired resistance, the power figures will show the same at the same speed, gradient and weight. That is why my test showed that everyone pretty much showed the same wattage at the same steady speed when on the flat (where weight is irrelevant).
When my trainer calibration was adjusted, it still showed the same power figures for the chosen speeds, but my powertap suddenly read higher figures. I don't believe anything had changed with the powertap, it's just that the applied resistance was higher, hence making me have to push harder to achieve the speed and giving higher wattage figures on the power meter, but without changing the figures on the Bkool (which are just based on speed, gradient, drag, etc.).
I think it must be different for a trainer like the KICKR, where the trainer has a strain gauge built in and is calibrated by a spin down so is known to be reasonably accurate. I assume when the simulator requests a certain resistance using the ANT+ trainer protocol, the KICKR applies that resistance with feedback from the strain gauges, so the resistance is correct within a much tighter margin of error. For the price of the Bkool trainer, it is not likely to have the same kind of calibration or tolerances with in the resistance unit.
Even if you rode along side a rider of similar weight at the same speed on the same course, the power figures would read the same, but your resistance might be a lot lower (or higher) than theirs, just making it easier (or harder) for you to keep up the same speed.
You would need to have a power meter to see how close it was, and even then, you would have to know that the power meter was proven to be accurate.
In the end, it doesn't really matter, so long as you have a baseline and are improving, and if you have someone to push you along it's better for your motivation. You can only really test yourself in the real world ...
Geoff
Add
Guru
- Location
- Powys, Wales
I must admit, whilst reclined in my settee, basking in the glow of my counterfeit success up Huez, I did kind of arrive at a similar conclusion, although mine was reached with probably less science and more ball scratching! I couldn't see how it would be possible to isolate the applied resistance between machines.
My cycling in the real world has increased exponentially since acquiring the BKool Widowmaker, and hills that once seemed insurmountable are now molehills in comparison.
In each event online, I push myself to ludicrous extremes, going deep into my pain threshold, and far beyond any level of exertion I would apply in the real world, for if I am nothing at all, I am a doggedly determined individual. But the gains I have made in such a short amount of time, whilst in some small way, may be partially down to my new additional running training, and possibly a rest to allow my muscles to fully recover and grow from the pounding I was inflicting on them, cannot possibly be attributed completely to my performance.
Maybe one day, I'll have to swing by yours Geoff, and hook up to your Powertap, and see what's going on? In the meantime, I will keep checking to see if
I am developing other super human abilities, such as unassisted flight or a tendency to turn green and rip my shirt when my children test my patience.
I also apologise to Geoff (whilst turning away, poking tongue in cheek and smirking involuntarily) for potentially nudging ahead of him in the ongoing quest for Goat Supremacy.
Bill, however, will never get such an apology, as it would seem, that even by me cheating, Bill just applies a bit more effort, possibly stops focusing on Loose Women on the TV in front of him, and concentrates on the cycling task beneath, to once again completely destroy my efforts, and cruise on by. Sadly, I may never recognise Bill's face, but I will forever have ingrained on my mind the 3D generated image of Bill's arse in Lycra, disappearing over the horizon.
My cycling in the real world has increased exponentially since acquiring the BKool Widowmaker, and hills that once seemed insurmountable are now molehills in comparison.
In each event online, I push myself to ludicrous extremes, going deep into my pain threshold, and far beyond any level of exertion I would apply in the real world, for if I am nothing at all, I am a doggedly determined individual. But the gains I have made in such a short amount of time, whilst in some small way, may be partially down to my new additional running training, and possibly a rest to allow my muscles to fully recover and grow from the pounding I was inflicting on them, cannot possibly be attributed completely to my performance.
Maybe one day, I'll have to swing by yours Geoff, and hook up to your Powertap, and see what's going on? In the meantime, I will keep checking to see if
I am developing other super human abilities, such as unassisted flight or a tendency to turn green and rip my shirt when my children test my patience.
I also apologise to Geoff (whilst turning away, poking tongue in cheek and smirking involuntarily) for potentially nudging ahead of him in the ongoing quest for Goat Supremacy.
Bill, however, will never get such an apology, as it would seem, that even by me cheating, Bill just applies a bit more effort, possibly stops focusing on Loose Women on the TV in front of him, and concentrates on the cycling task beneath, to once again completely destroy my efforts, and cruise on by. Sadly, I may never recognise Bill's face, but I will forever have ingrained on my mind the 3D generated image of Bill's arse in Lycra, disappearing over the horizon.
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Rob H
Eat, Sleep, Climb, Repeat
Does this appear in the cycle chat group ? or do i need to look for mountain goats?
After my dismal performance up Pla de Beret on Saturday, I'm having a few days rest. I fell asleep on the settee at 8:30 Saturday evening so something not quite right. I'll listen to my body and rest up. I'll be keeping an eye on the weather for the weekend, if the forecast snow is likely I'll save the Thursday night league ride for Saturday, otherwise I'll do it Wednesday, giving me a couple of days rest for the club ride on Saturday.
I am desperate to get out on the road, but not if the conditions are slippery. This Saturday, on the club ride, 12 went over on black ice and one went home in an ambulance. Glad I have the turbo, Mountain goat challenges, and friendly racing to keep me working hard.
I am desperate to get out on the road, but not if the conditions are slippery. This Saturday, on the club ride, 12 went over on black ice and one went home in an ambulance. Glad I have the turbo, Mountain goat challenges, and friendly racing to keep me working hard.
gbrown
Geoff on Bkool
- Location
- South Somerset
The active groups are The Mountain Goats http://www.bkool.com/group/show/75682 and the Thursday Night CC Group http://www.bkool.com/group/show/72022
The Goats stages are mainly vertical, the Thursday Night is aimed at getting together for varied group rides each Thursday at 7pm with a re-run on Saturday at 5pm.
Anyone active here on Cyclechat is welcome to join in.
Geoff
My thoughts exactly. Can't wait for it to warm up so I can get out and smash a long ride
gbrown
Geoff on Bkool
- Location
- South Somerset
There can be no doubt about the level of effort, encouraged by the competitive side of the group dynamics and motivated by the positive feedback here, and the improvements are well deserved.
I didn't post the final part of my Haytor Vale ride last Saturday, mainly because I was embarrassed at the gasping noises I was making as I pushed over the last mile trying to minimize the gap to you guys!
Without a power meter they say to use Heart Rate as a pretty good indication of effort, and even if the actual power figure displayed is not calibrated, the power zone calculated from repeated FTP tests and long races will give a pretty accurate indication of the effort level one is applying, ideal for training. Kipsters comment about Black Ice is timely, several of my cycling friends and acquaintances who ride through the winter regularly report falls on slippery surfaces. I'll stick to the bkool until the temperatures get back to double figures and the roads dry out a little. Only another 4-5 weeks until March.
Or if the Welsh CC rally goes ahead I'll have the powertap with me!
My enduring image is of Kipster sailing past at 149 mph, as I tried to tuck into his slipstream! It was hilarious, like something out of Benny Hill ....
Geoff
I can back up that theory of improvement on the BKool!
This week I did my first 40km TT test ride of the year and went 5 min faster than I did all last year even in race season!
The only thing different now in my training is that the Bkool unit has been added with its annoying 'harder resistance' workouts! I see it as a positive
Rob H
Eat, Sleep, Climb, Repeat
Great, thanks Geoff.
Ive sent a request for both ( Rob H ) and will start to figure things out tonight#
IU suspect the first few times ill die on my arse but looking forward to it in a sick sort of way.
gbrown
Geoff on Bkool
- Location
- South Somerset
You're now a member of the Thursday Night CC Group, you can still do last weeks stage (Haytor Vale) if you like, this weeks should start tomorrow, hope you can join in on Thursday night and/or Saturday evening.
Cheers,
Geoff
