Sportive cancelled - should the cash be refunded?

[Andrew Br]

In this specific case (long postponement notice) then you wouldn't have been paid.

Fair point; I'd probably have gone for a bike ride instead.

.

 

[PpPete]

As another person said good post. I agree with you regarding the local reliability rides and also I am finding myself becoming more drawn towards audaxes. ..

On the other hand the audax scene is a lot more low key, the entry cost often being barely a quarter of the glitzy sportive.

Er ...quite
I entered a 300km audax for last Saturday
Cost £3.50 no food included.
Decided not to travel to the start in view of the forecast.
90 entries. 5 riders turned up at start, 3 set out, 2 finished.


I went to local 200km event instead. Forecast was more hopeful. £5.00 Tea and Jaffa Cakes at start & finish.

 

[nickyboy]

I'd be surprised if that were really the economics for most events. For a 3000-rider event, I suspect that the £75k income from riders basically covers pre-committed costs - own office costs (£50k doesn't seem generous for that alone for a professional organisation), the cost of signage, free food and drink, loo hire, venue hire, tent hire, first aid provision, mechanic provision, publicity, timing equipment hire, hire of marshals, insurance and so on. I suspect the money is made by selling pitches at the venue site to companies to sell their wares, and by taking a commission on food and drink sold.

If I'm right (and it's how I'd run the show if it were mine), a cancellation will result in a significant loss of profit, as well as reputational damage. The more astute organisers will have cancellation insurance - I've just found a quote online for a premium of £250 for £75,000 cover, which seems intuitively about right to me.

I think the truth lies somewhere between the two. I would expect that the sportive organiser's contracts with the food suppliers, loo hire, timing equipment, marshals etc could be cancelled with either no cost or minimal cost. This cost saving is not passed back to the riders in the form of refunds so the organiser ends up cash positive.

I think you're well off course on the insurance premium however. It will be individually priced depending on circumstances - ie time of year, location. March events will attract a much higher premium than summer.

I do agree with you that reputational loss is something the organisers seem to be ignoring. KtG's policy re the Cheshire Cat seems very shortsighted and they should be offering at least a refund of the cash surplus they have on a per capita basis

 

[bof]

I think the truth lies somewhere between the two. I would expect that the sportive organiser's contracts with the food suppliers, loo hire, timing equipment, marshals etc could be cancelled with either no cost or minimal cost. This cost saving is not passed back to the riders in the form of refunds so the organiser ends up cash positive.

Having been involved in organising large events (not cycling) in the admittedly distant past - don't think this is the case. Event organisers are generally poor credit risks so have to often pay up front AND and a loo hire company for example will take the view that it could have hired them elsewhere if someone did not cancel with two days notice.

 

[nickyboy]

Having been involved in organising large events (not cycling) in the admittedly distant past - don't think this is the case. Event organisers are generally poor credit risks so have to often pay up front AND and a loo hire company for example will take the view that it could have hired them elsewhere if someone did not cancel with two days notice.

Fair enough, I haven't been involved in this industry. You would hope that there would be some cash surplus in the event of a cancellation that could be offered as a refund to those who couldn't make a rescheduled date

 

[srw]

Having been involved in organising large events (not cycling) in the admittedly distant past - don't think this is the case. Event organisers are generally poor credit risks so have to often pay up front AND and a loo hire company for example will take the view that it could have hired them elsewhere if someone did not cancel with two days notice.

That would be my assumption - good to hear it verified. I suspect the company that supplies the marshals will also need paying in advance - a cancellation two days in advance won't be long enough notice to get out of their commitments to their employees.

By "office costs" I meant the cost of actually running the operation. Anyone who's organised anything will know that it always takes much longer than you think it will. £50k will buy you three people for six months, allowing for oncosts. That's not an awful lot for a 3000-person event.

 

[srw]

Mind you, if I cancel this Thursday's FNRttC you can all whistle for your two quid.

That would be the two quid which no-one will pay you until you get to Felpham?

 

[BimblingBee]

Oh dear, the FB page for KTG seems to have had a number of 'edits' a number of which included posts relating to how to claim your money back! Always a good sign :-(

 

[DCLane]

Oh dear, the FB page for KTG seems to have had a number of 'edits' a number of which included posts relating to how to claim your money back! Always a good sign :-(

They've missed the one which linked to Which: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/can-i-get-a-refund-on-my-ticket-/

 

[BimblingBee]

They've missed the one which linked to Which: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/can-i-get-a-refund-on-my-ticket-/

Good spot, such a shame that they are being so short sighted and not even acknowledging that people would like a refund. For a commercial set up they appear quite nieve. Can't see me ever giving them a penny again.

 

[bianchi1]

They've missed the one which linked to Which: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/can-i-get-a-refund-on-my-ticket-/

This looks like it applies to events that you go and see

"for example if the concert, theatre show or sports match you paid to see has been cancelled or rescheduled"

It would be interesting to see if sportives fall into that category, and if they do not what are they defined as?

 

[400bhp]

This looks like it applies to events that you go and see

"for example if the concert, theatre show or sports match you paid to see has been cancelled or rescheduled"

It would be interesting to see if sportives fall into that category, and if they do not what are they defined as?

Agree, and the Which site seems to be unclear whether it's a statutory right, or simply a right given by a member of STAR?

 

[bianchi1]

Agree, and the Which site seems to be unclear whether it's a statutory right, or simply a right given by a member of STAR?

And apparently

But you're not entitled to a refund if an understudy appears in place of a show's headline star, or a headlining artist changes from the ones advertised on a music festival line-up.

So i guess all they would have to do is offer an alternative event...a 20 mile walk for example, to cover themselves. A local triathlon was 'altered' last summer due to the swim (in the flooded river severn) being deemed to dangerous. The participants were given the option to walk the swim then ride and run. I have no idea if refunds were offered.

 

[BimblingBee]

As a ltd company it's reasonable to suggest that they will be expected to operate to a higher standard compared to a local club were you pay a couple of quid.

I'm sure if people are keen and KTG remain unwilling to compromise then there is a host of reasons why going to court may prove costly for them. As quick google comes up with http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Terms_in_Consumer_Contracts_Regulations_1999#section_2

If you've bought 5 tickets for mates etc thats 150 quid and becomes worth pursuing... If you paid by credit card then that may help... It's a slippery slope and KTG are currently on very dangerous ground.

Reputation. Lifetime to build, takes a moment to destroy.

 

[400bhp]

As a ltd company it's reasonable to suggest that they will be expected to operate to a higher standard compared to a local club were you pay a couple of quid.

I'm sure if people are keen and KTG remain unwilling to compromise then there is a host of reasons why going to court may prove costly for them. As quick google comes up with http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Terms_in_Consumer_Contracts_Regulations_1999#section_2

If you've bought 5 tickets for mates etc thats 150 quid and becomes worth pursuing... If you paid by credit card then that may help... It's a slippery slope and KTG are currently on very dangerous ground.

Reputation. Lifetime to build, takes a moment to destroy.

Is this one such case where some lawyer gets together a group action? Or does that only happen in the States?

Must be a fair few lawyers within the 3500 "competitors".