Sportive cancelled - should the cash be refunded?

[Rob3rt]

It is part of the risk you take. TBH, I would rather organisers paid caution to bad conditions rather than just going ahead regardless. A couple of hundred to a couple of thousand people, many of whom are not very experienced or skilled, riding outside of their skill envelope in close proximity with poor weather conditions on the open road, pushing their luck because they are under some false impression they are in a race, is a recipe for broken collar bones and smashed carbon! You see enough carnage on sportives without having to contend with snow and gale force winds. Even for skilled and experienced cyclists (of which there will be a fair few within the sportive crowd) such weather conditions are dangerous and a challenge not worth trying to overcome, all it takes is a gust of wind to do some serious damage.

I was supposed to be racing today, but it was cancelled because it was too dangerous! The organiser has said they will try to reschedule, however, I had no expectation of such a comment, they had already booked a village hall for the HQ and most likely paid for catering (cake and hot drinks), both of which will be none refundable or the food will have spoiled by the time they can reschedule.

Obviously it is irritating to lose out, I would be very dissappointed too, but you have pretty much no comeback.

 

[ianrauk]

Goes to show it's always good to read the terms and conditions.

 

[400bhp]

Goes to show it's always good to read the terms and conditions.

Yes, but in reality what difference would it make?

I doubt it would put anyone off doing it, and we would still get these threads regardless.

 

[nickyboy]

The whole sportive industry is immature and we are all learning as we go.

Perhaps the lesson learned is that if we want to enter events at the time of year with a chance of really bad weather then we should only do it with companies with either clear refund policies or with a track record of being reasonable

As 400bhp alludes, a sportive organiser would make more money by cancelling an event than by running it. So we need to be mindful that less scrupulous organisers may be tempted to cancel unnecessarily if they don't have to refund

 

[BimblingBee]

Risk you take by booking a sprotive in March... unlucky with the very bad weather, of course.

Of course the counter argument would be that's the risk organisers take in running an event so early in the year! Snow at this time is certainly not a particularly rare event, July maybe, but not March.

Another note is that just because you've agreed to T&C's means very little if they are not legal. Refunds for the fairly small group (in the larger scheme of things) would be appropriate.

I'd imagine (hope!) that as a business ktg would have factored in this sort of thing in their business model...

 

[redcard]

Yes, but in reality what difference would it make?

I doubt it would put anyone off doing it, and we would still get these threads regardless.

Consumer rights normally trump terms and conditions.

 

[bianchi1]

Road cycling is a weather dependent activity..you can do it in the ice and snow but its dangerous and this would have implications for the organisers insurance, but more importantly the safety of the participants.

You pay your money and you take your chance, just like many other other sports/hobbies. A weeks skiing will cost a fortune and noone will give you a refund if there is no snow. Look at the cancelled New York marathon, I know folks that spent a fortune on travel, accommodation etc.

If there is a rush of folk demanding cash back, surely the organisers are going to have to buy expensive insurance to cover any weather related disruption, this expense will then have to be passed on to the participants, resulting in events that are so expensive only a select few will be able to afford it. I am coming from the standpoint of not understanding why anyone would pay more than a couple of quid to do a ride (the cost of most of the local reliability rides around here) on public roads, but I'm not sure cycling needs to move toward a modal where only the extremely wealthy can afford to take part. If that means that now and again a bit of freak weather causes a few to suffer financially so be it...you could always have ridden the course independently!

 

[geo]

Road cycling is a weather dependent activity..you can do it in the ice and snow but its dangerous and this would have implications for the organisers insurance, but more importantly the safety of the participants.

You pay your money and you take your chance, just like many other other sports/hobbies. A weeks skiing will cost a fortune and noone will give you a refund if there is no snow. Look at the cancelled New York marathon, I know folks that spent a fortune on travel, accommodation etc.

If there is a rush of folk demanding cash back, surely the organisers are going to have to buy expensive insurance to cover any weather related disruption, this expense will then have to be passed on to the participants, resulting in events that are so expensive only a select few will be able to afford it. I am coming from the standpoint of not understanding why anyone would pay more than a couple of quid to do a ride (the cost of most of the local reliability rides around here) on public roads, but I'm not sure cycling needs to move toward a modal where only the extremely wealthy can afford to take part. If that means that now and again a bit of freak weather causes a few to suffer financially so be it...you could always have ridden the course independently!

Very good post, the only thing I would add is that any cancelled event then you should automatically be entered if / when it is re sheduled, which I'm guessing is the case anyway. I have ridden a few sportives and luckily have never had a problem with the weather playing a role.

But one thing is certain to me, riders safety is far more important than losing 10, 20 quid or whatever the entry fee is.

 

[marzjennings]

The event I entered has been cancelled tomorrow because of 'bad' weather forecast (which has annoyed me). I think I should be entitled to a refund. However, the event organiser appears to think differently.

Surely this is a simple case of paying for something that wasn't delivered?

I would demand a refund, regardless of what the organisers many think, you are entitled to a refund or alternative date. If you can't make the new date, you should get a full refund. The risk is theirs not yours.

If the organisers cancel the event
If the organisers cancel the event, you are entitled to a full refund of the face value of the ticket, and usually the booking fee. The face value is the cost of the ticket as printed on it, without extras on top such as postage, administration and booking fees.
You are entitled to this refund because the organisers failed to provide what they sold you, and have broken their contract with you.
This will often be done automatically , although some will explain the way to claim on their websites or through emails.

from here......http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/travel_leisure_and_food_e/consumer_event_tickets_e/if_the_organisers_cancel_the_event.htm

 

[bianchi1]

From a wiggle sportive list of terms and conditions


UK Cycling Events reserves the right to cancel any event, due to extreme weather conditions. In such a event, each participants entry with be automatically moved to the rescheduled event. If a Participant can not make this event, they can carry their entry to another event of a equal or lower ticket value within the following 6 month period. No refunds will be issued.


Seems clear enough

 

[redcard]

But one thing is certain to me, riders safety is far more important than losing 10, 20 quid or whatever the entry fee is.

What a bonkers argument.

Go into McDonalds, order a couple of Big Macs. You give them your money, but they only give you 1 Big Mac because they determine "you're fat enough already".

Do you walk away because they've help you make a positive change to your diet?

 

[Rapples]

The whole sportive industry is immature and we are all learning as we go.

Perhaps the lesson learned is that if we want to enter events at the time of year with a chance of really bad weather then we should only do it with companies with either clear refund policies or with a track record of being reasonable

As 400bhp alludes, a sportive organiser would make more money by cancelling an event than by running it. So we need to be mindful that less scrupulous organisers may be tempted to cancel unnecessarily if they don't have to refund

There's a clear parallel in Horse Trials or Eventing. Many events get cancelled, and there is a central fund to cover it. IIRC you still lose a chunk of your entry fee. Sportives however are stand alone events, so you pays your money and takes your chance.

Lesson: Enter late or on the line if they don't give refunds

 

[172traindriver]

Road cycling is a weather dependent activity..you can do it in the ice and snow but its dangerous and this would have implications for the organisers insurance, but more importantly the safety of the participants.

You pay your money and you take your chance, just like many other other sports/hobbies. A weeks skiing will cost a fortune and noone will give you a refund if there is no snow. Look at the cancelled New York marathon, I know folks that spent a fortune on travel, accommodation etc.

If there is a rush of folk demanding cash back, surely the organisers are going to have to buy expensive insurance to cover any weather related disruption, this expense will then have to be passed on to the participants, resulting in events that are so expensive only a select few will be able to afford it. I am coming from the standpoint of not understanding why anyone would pay more than a couple of quid to do a ride (the cost of most of the local reliability rides around here) on public roads, but I'm not sure cycling needs to move toward a modal where only the extremely wealthy can afford to take part. If that means that now and again a bit of freak weather causes a few to suffer financially so be it...you could always have ridden the course independently!

As another person said good post. I agree with you regarding the local reliability rides and also I am finding myself becoming more drawn towards audaxes. I am from the other end of the county to you and have done a number of sportives over the recent years but agree with you and others saying they are becoming the preserve of the wealthy.
When you break it down for the going rate of a sportive (approx £25/£35) what do you get?
A signposted route, gpx download, probably free food/drink at feed stations (sometimes they have run out) and possibly an electronic timing chip. There will be a photographer, but you have to cover his costs by paying for the photos.......accepted.
There is one that I have done 3 times and for the standard cost you get entry, a number and at the end there is free water and flapjacks, not that brilliant value for money.
Other companies organise events that include more freebies and better food so those would be perceived as better value for money.
As there a large numbers involved you have to take into consideration various riders differing abilities, there have been a fair few occasions when I have witnessed near multiple pile ups, but thankfully they have been avoided. The growth in cycling in this country is great to see, but I wonder how much longer there will be a market for this kind of event, will people eventually start to tire of it? There will always be a market granted and at any of these large events it is a show ground for the latest bling which people can afford.
On the other hand the audax scene is a lot more low key, the entry cost often being barely a quarter of the glitzy sportive. Map reading skills can be required, even though there are often gpx directions or you can create your own via various sites. Numbers are a lot lower, but you get to meet some interesting characters, the controls are normally at reasonably priced local cafes and you don't tend to get a photographer.
Another possibility would be to download the gpx route and do the ride with your mates on another day when the roads won't be swamped with cyclists.

 

[dodgy]

If your event is cancelled, just turn up and ride it when the weather is better.

 

[srw]

If you've paid by credit card, you could ask them to look into it although I wouldn't hold out much hope.

They clearly aren't covered adequately for such events in terms of insurance.

what-3000 riders at, say £25 average payment = £75k revenue.

Let's knock off, say £25k for things they cannot get out of (contracts they have that cannot be cancelled).

£50k for FA

I'd be surprised if that were really the economics for most events. For a 3000-rider event, I suspect that the £75k income from riders basically covers pre-committed costs - own office costs (£50k doesn't seem generous for that alone for a professional organisation), the cost of signage, free food and drink, loo hire, venue hire, tent hire, first aid provision, mechanic provision, publicity, timing equipment hire, hire of marshals, insurance and so on. I suspect the money is made by selling pitches at the venue site to companies to sell their wares, and by taking a commission on food and drink sold.

If I'm right (and it's how I'd run the show if it were mine), a cancellation will result in a significant loss of profit, as well as reputational damage. The more astute organisers will have cancellation insurance - I've just found a quote online for a premium of £250 for £75,000 cover, which seems intuitively about right to me.