New bike - stem clamp not tightened resulting in catastrophic failure

[Howard]

If the stem was defective them I agree. However it would have failed on the first ride.

Really? You can be absolutely certain of this? I wouldn't be comfortable stating that as fact. If it was defective I'd say it would be likely to fail when it was exposed to stresses greater than it could handle in its already weakened state. That could happen on the first ride, the second, the 10th, the 1000th ride, or never.

The very fact it didn't negates the rest of your argument.

I think you are still bluring two very different issues, and I'm getting the feeling you are trying to pin something on me. I'm not overly impressed. If you aren't, I apologise, but if you are, don't you have something better to do?

OOI you say he is your client - Are you his cycle instructor?

No.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Based on the 2nd hand evidence you have provided so far yes I would say it would have failed on the first ride. Easy to check if the threads have been stripped or sheared anyway so I would suggest checking first.

I am not trying to pin anything on you. In my experience when somebody states "A client of mine" on a cycle forum the relationship is usually instructor / pupil. Either that or they are trying to sound important.

I'll say no more but seriously, get a reality and fact check before you confront the LBS.

Really? You can be absolutely certain of this? I wouldn't be comfortable stating that as fact. If it was defective I'd say it would be likely to fail when it was exposed to stresses greater than it could handle in its already weakened state. That could happen on the first ride, the second, the 10th, the 1000th ride, or never.



I think you are still bluring two very different issues, and I'm getting the feeling you are trying to pin something on me. I'm not overly impressed. If you aren't, I apologise, but if you are, don't you have something better to do?



No.

 

[Chris.IOW]

IF and it appears to be a big if, the bolts sheared, surely that fault goes back to the original manufacturer, how was the shop to know that a bolt had a problem that could shear.

IF the bolt sheared through the sheer strength of your client, as you mentioned again, how can this be the fault of the shop.

IF they worked loose, how can this be the fault of the shop. If the incident had happened within sight of the shop maybe but anything could have happened since.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

+1

Like I said Howard - stem front caps simply do not fail in this way. Your friend is lying. Pure and simple.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

+1

IF and it appears to be a big if, the bolts sheared, surely that fault goes back to the original manufacturer, how was the shop to know that a bolt had a problem that could shear.

IF the bolt sheared through the sheer strength of your client, as you mentioned again, how can this be the fault of the shop.

IF they worked loose, how can this be the fault of the shop. If the incident had happened within sight of the shop maybe but anything could have happened since.

 

[Howard]

IF and it appears to be a big if, the bolts sheared, surely that fault goes back to the original manufacturer, how was the shop to know that a bolt had a problem that could shear.

Are you saying because the shop wasn't the OEM, they bare no responsibility to ensure the products they sell are fit for purpose and not dangerous? I don't think so. I'm happy to concede I don't know the letter of the law on this, but I'd be surprised if you are right, and that Waitrose would bare no responsibility if the chicken they sell, bought through third party supplies, poisoned their customers. This is what quality control, an essential part of business, is supposed to mitigate against. As I understand it, in the situation here, the cost would then be passed on from the shop to the supplier in a chain of responsibility to which there will inevitably some kind of insurance policy in place. Businesses should choose their suppliers carefully to avoid this situation, and budget for their suppliers messing up from time to time.

IF the bolt sheared through the sheer strength of your client, as you mentioned again, how can this be the fault of the shop.

I think it would be if the bolts used to secure the stem clamp were compromised due to poor workmanship (i.e. cross threading, over tightening, under tightening).

IF they worked loose, how can this be the fault of the shop. If the incident had happened within sight of the shop maybe but anything could have happened since.

Isn't this a repeat of the 'your client messed with it' argument? I've already replied that if he did mess with it, yes, you are right, it is not the shop's responsibility, but if he didn't, and it did fail within a couple of rides (10-15 miles) I'm still comfortable with my belief that the shop bares responsibility, and that they should stand behind the products they sell, and the services they provide.

 

[Chris.IOW]

Are you saying because the shop wasn't the OEM, they bare no responsibility to ensure the products they sell are fit for purpose and not dangerous? I don't think so. I'm happy to concede I don't know the letter of the law on this, but I'd be surprised if you are right, and that Waitrose would bare no responsibility if the chicken they sell, bought through third party supplies, poisoned their customers. This is what quality control, an essential part of business, is supposed to mitigate against. As I understand it, in the situation here, the cost would then be passed on from the shop to the supplier in a chain of responsibility to which there will inevitably some kind of insurance policy in place. Businesses should choose their suppliers carefully to avoid this situation, and budget for their suppliers messing up from time to time.

How? You can't look at a bolt and say, you know what this one looks a bit dodgy, lets try another, to see the possibilty of a bolt shearing you would need special Non Destructive test equipment, you couldn't possibly expect the shops to have that sort of equipment, that testing would be done by the OEM who would certifiy the product is suitable for use.

What if the frame had snapped, would you still be holding the shop responsible or the manufacturer.

 

[Crackle]

I still don't believe your client, not a jot, not an iota. What he's done is adjust the stem for position, he's then cack handedly tightened it up and sheared one or two bolts. He's then thought crikey and tried to shift the blame elsewhere.

No one else on this thread believes him either, nor do we agree with your views on this. You only have to read a few threads on bike problems to see that mostly the consensus view is right, there's a lot of knowledge on this forum.

Quite honestly if he is telling the truth I think he'd get more from the shop if he took a more humble approach. I know if someone came in to me shouting the odds with a problem like this I'd send them off with a flea in their ear, whereas if they played the innocent I'd be more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Howard]

How? You can't look at a bolt and say, you know what this one looks a bit dodgy, lets try another, to see the possibilty of a bolt shearing you would need special Non Destructive test equipment, you couldn't possibly expect the shops to have that sort of equipment, that testing would be done by the OEM who would certifiy the product is suitable for use.

Yes, you are completely right. That's why (sensible) shops mitigate the need for this by vetting their suppliers very carefully, having insurance in place for the occasions where their suppliers slip up, and maintaining good relations with their suppliers so that when things do go wrong they can work together easily to sort things out. Quality control isn't just checking products before they go out the door, it's part of operations, too.

What if the frame had snapped, would you still be holding the shop responsible or the manufacturer.

The shop would certainly be the first point of contact, and I'd expect them to work with the manufacturer to have the product replaced and absorb the costs of any compensation to the customer. These costs would inevitably be passed down the supply chain and probably ultimately borne out by an insurance policy. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'd be amazed if a shop weren't extremely helpful in the event of a failure like that - the only thing they have to lose is their reputation. Same goes for a big name supplier. Any costs of replacement or compensation would eventually be passed on to their supplier, in turn, until the organisation at fault is rightfully charged for the consequences of their mistake.

 

[Howard]

I still don't believe your client, not a jot, not an iota. What he's done is adjust the stem for position, he's then cack handedly tightened it up and sheared one or two bolts. He's then thought crikey and tried to shift the blame elsewhere.

I've already stated that if it was his fault, he's to blame. Shop bares no responsibility. But i think it's worth considering what the course of action would be should it turn out you are wrong, no matter how unlikely you believe that to be, and the conversation has moved on to that. After all, only he knows what really happened - his description to me could have been wrong, or how I interpreted it could have been wrong. What I do know is that he does not believe he is responsible, and he didn't strike me as deluded or a fibber or both, leaving me thinking either he didn't describe what happened well, I didn't interpret it well, or something that really shouldn't have happened, actually happened.

Quite honestly if he is telling the truth I think he'd get more from the shop if he took a more humble approach. I know if someone came in to me shouting the odds with a problem like this I'd send them off with a flea in their ear, whereas if they played the innocent I'd be more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think anyone has suggested he should go back to the shop and lie. And I wouldn't ever suggest he gets angry - attract more flies with honey and all that. Cheers for the input, though.

 

[Chris.IOW]

The shop would certainly be the first point of contact, ement or and I'd expect them to work with the manufacturer to have the product replaced and absorb the costs of any compensation to the customer.

Absolutley, and that is who your contract is with so you would have to go through the shop, I was looking more at where ultimate responsibility would lie.

Agree that the shops have an important role to play in managing the quality of their supply chain, but in reality how much influence would an independant LBS be able to exert into a large manufacturer such as Specialized for example.

 

[Bluebell72]

Howard, you say 'be nice' and 'read my post' yet...

I advised that when he takes it back - the bike is now quite damaged - he should be after some serious goodwill. An upgrade to a £1000 bike wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO. If not, a letter to the Chief Exec, naming the manager on duty at the point of sale.

you have advised your 'client' to act in the most immoral way; later you say that it's not a local bike shop that is implicated in this, but a large company, the implication that they are making so much profit that they won't notice a £600 loss.

How about said 'client' using some common sense and going in for some discussion, to see how the issue could be resolved?

 

[4F]

i still think "your client" has ham fistedly adjusted the stem and is to blame as well as being a numpty for not stopping when he felt some movement in the bars. The suggestion that you made to him to ask for a £1000 bike as compensation is nothing short of a joke.

 

[Sonofpear]

I've read all the posts here and find the story of numerous bolts shearing, and or bolts loosening without the rider realizing to be totally crazy.
Now I work in a steel engineering factory where we drill and tap holes all the time. Now I don't exact figures or the type of stem set up but the directional force required to strip a thread is probably mote than your average person could exert. And for multiple failures is just madness. For the front stem plate to come off surely the applied force to the bars/stem/bolts would have to be applied from a totally un-natural angle that would not occur during your normal everyday ride.

 

[Crackle]

I've already stated that if it was his fault, he's to blame. Shop bares no responsibility. But i think it's worth considering what the course of action would be should it turn out you are wrong, no matter how unlikely you believe that to be, and the conversation has moved on to that. After all, only he knows what really happened - his description to me could have been wrong, or how I interpreted it could have been wrong. What I do know is that he does not believe he is responsible, and he didn't strike me as deluded or a fibber or both, leaving me thinking either he didn't describe what happened well, I didn't interpret it well, or something that really shouldn't have happened, actually happened.

Well, that's the point, I don't think it's worth considering what responsibility the shop has until you find a way to convince them that they have some responsibility for this, that's what no one can get past. The rest is moot at the moment.