Motorsports Thread

[Jody]

I get what you are saying but I don't think RB told Perez to deliberately deliver poor results for most of the season. I think they'd have liked the constructors as well.

The RB family has never been shy of axing people in the most brutal way if they don’t perform. Seems strange that he has been given this much room to underperform without consequence and they’ve been careful not to slate him too much

 

[matticus]

The RB family has never been shy of axing people in the most brutal way if they don’t perform. Seems strange that he has been given this much room to underperform without consequence and they’ve been careful not to slate him too much

Perhaps no-one else will tolerate Max? (just speculation!) And a few years back I think he was reckoned to be a good, solid B-list driver - at least that's the impression I got from half-hearted GP watching ...

 

[rustybolts]

Which basically translates as: because the sponsors are paying Checo, there's more money in our own pot to put into the car.

So at the end of the day, it's more likely to be a financial decision rather than one based on driver talent. The concept of the pay driver is, quite frankly, nothing new.

There is also the "strings attached " driver i.e. Eddie Jordan had to take Sato as a condition of getting Honda engines in 2002 , Sato nearly bankrupted Jordan , he was a crashfest ! BUT he won two Indy 500 races later on . Checos alleged 30 Million to RB coffers is not small money by any standards

 

[Reynard]

Another one for the knowledgeable Reynard.

Without checking, I think there is something like 250 odd points separating Verrtappen and Perez - is that the biggest points difference between team mates in a season, or has someone managed an even bigger gap?

I don't think you can really do that, as you're comparing apples and pears across eras, with different numbers of races per season, different points scoring systems, plus you used to have dropped scores as well.

Although one that really springs to mind as an unequal partnership is 1986, when Johnny Dumfries was the #2 driver to Senna at Lotus. Senna finished 3rd in the driver's championship with 55 points, while Johnny Dumfries ended the season with 3 points.

However, you have to remember that Lotus in 1986 was a very lopsided team in terms of the resources awarded to each driver; Johnny did NOT have any access to the spare car or extra parts, nor did he get testing time of any kind. This was after Lotus had originally signed Derek Warwick as equal #1 driver, but Senna threw an almighty poisonous strop about it and twisted the team and sponsors' arms behind their backs as he wanted to be top dog.

The team manager got Derek into a meeting and tore the already-signed contract up in front of him.

But the sponsors (JPS) were still insisting on a British driver in the team, hence the choice of Johnny Dumfries. The move to Lotus pretty well much scuppered his single-seater career, although he *did* later win Le Mans with Jaguar in 1988.

 

[Reynard]

There is also the "strings attached " driver i.e. Eddie Jordan had to take Sato as a condition of getting Honda engines in 2002 , Sato nearly bankrupted Jordan , he was a crashfest ! BUT he won two Indy 500 races later on . Checos alleged 30 Million to RB coffers is not small money by any standards

Jordan was run on a shoestring, right from the very beginning. They were always looking for drivers with a big budget to drive for them, but not without making several errors of judgement in doiing so. They signed Kelvin Burt at the tail end of '93, initially on a testing contract but with a view to a race seat for '94 after he won the Brirish F3 with PSR, which was a very well-funded team with lots of sponsors on the car.

Eddie made the mistake of thinking that it was Kelvin himself who was really well-funded, when the reality was that Kelvin barely had two beans to put together. And so when he found out, the contract was pulled because Kelvin could bring nothing to the team.

Taku is actually very underrated - I just think he came into F1 a bit too soon. Sadly, the to-do with Jordan totally screwed Kelvin's single-seater career, and is the main reason why he initially went to Japan to race (big pay packets out there) before coming back to the UK to race in the BTCC.

 

[rustybolts]

Jordan was run on a shoestring, right from the very beginning. They were always looking for drivers with a big budget to drive for them, but not without making several errors of judgement in doiing so. They signed Kelvin Burt at the tail end of '93, initially on a testing contract but with a view to a race seat for '94 after he won the Brirish F3 with PSR, which was a very well-funded team with lots of sponsors on the car.

Eddie made the mistake of thinking that it was Kelvin himself who was really well-funded, when the reality was that Kelvin barely had two beans to put together. And so when he found out, the contract was pulled because Kelvin could bring nothing to the team.

Taku is actually very underrated - I just think he came into F1 a bit too soon. Sadly, the to-do with Jordan totally screwed Kelvin's single-seater career, and is the main reason why he initially went to Japan to race (big pay packets out there) before coming back to the UK to race in the BTCC.

WTF ??? are you talking about ?? Jordan ( like Frank Williams ) started off without 2 red pennies to rub together but succeeded in establishing Jordan F1 and was very successful for many years before he sold the concern . Many other much better founded F1 teams fell by the wayside back in the day but Jordan didn't . Jordan was the exception. Jordan made f**k all "errors of judgement " as you claim it. He started the careers of many notable young prospects who went on to stardom . He sold them on at enormous profits. The list reads both Schumacher brothers, Frentzen, Irvine , Alesi ( who was a temperamental bugger ) Fisichella ,and lots more I can't think of now. He took Hill and Brundle on in F1 , had f3 dealings with Brundle earlier.When Gachot was jailed for spraying that London taxi drivers face Jordan did not contact him once when he was locked up , so he was ruthless enough .' like all the successful drivers and team bosses and its always been like that. He never employed Coulthard but owes him an eternal gratitude for decimating the field at Spa 98 and doggy styling for M Schumacher , thus getting Jordans one and only 1 , 2 finish. So many great F1 engineers trained in Jordan F1 , i.e. Rob Smedley ( who has the height of praise for Jordan and loved working there.) Some others were Sam Michael , Burgess, Gallagher and Mike Gascoyne and lots more. He had that lovely little 7 Up F1 car that Gary Anderson designed and John Wattie Watson tested initially , they had to change the name ( number ) of it because BMW objected , can't remember the exact details now but it was a great little car. He had no big backing or clout and while he had wonderful chassis yera after year had to put up with crappy Yamaha and Peugeot etc engines which wouldn't pull you out of bed . As for Burt , like many other F3 , F2 guys found the big league difficult . Jordan had an amazing career in F1 , look at all the F1 teams running from Silverstone now ? Jordan was ahead of his time . As for Sato he is not underrated , was not top line F1 material and wrote off more Jordan cars , Jeez.. FFS. Sure he won Indy but so did Ericsson , Rossi etc .

 

[Reynard]

WTF ??? are you talking about ?? Jordan ( like Frank Williams ) started off without 2 red pennies to rub together but succeeded in establishing Jordan F1 and was very successful for many years before he sold the concern . Many other much better founded F1 teams fell by the wayside back in the day but Jordan didn't . Jordan was the exception. Jordan made f**k all "errors of judgement " as you claim it. He started the careers of many notable young prospects who went on to stardom . He sold them on at enormous profits. The list reads both Schumacher brothers, Frentzen, Irvine , Alesi ( who was a temperamental bugger ) Fisichella ,and lots more I can't think of now. He took Hill and Brundle on in F1 , had f3 dealings with Brundle earlier.When Gachot was jailed for spraying that London taxi drivers face Jordan did not contact him once when he was locked up , so he was ruthless enough .' like all the successful drivers and team bosses and its always been like that. He never employed Coulthard but owes him an eternal gratitude for decimating the field at Spa 98 and doggy styling for M Schumacher , thus getting Jordans one and only 1 , 2 finish. So many great F1 engineers trained in Jordan F1 , i.e. Rob Smedley ( who has the height of praise for Jordan and loved working there.) Some others were Sam Michael , Burgess, Gallagher and Mike Gascoyne and lots more. He had that lovely little 7 Up F1 car that Gary Anderson designed and John Wattie Watson tested initially , they had to change the name ( number ) of it because BMW objected , can't remember the exact details now but it was a great little car. He had no big backing or clout and while he had wonderful chassis yera after year had to put up with crappy Yamaha and Peugeot etc engines which wouldn't pull you out of bed . As for Burt , like many other F3 , F2 guys found the big league difficult . Jordan had an amazing career in F1 , look at all the F1 teams running from Silverstone now ? Jordan was ahead of his time . As for Sato he is not underrated , was not top line F1 material and wrote off more Jordan cars , Jeez.. FFS. Sure he won Indy but so did Ericsson , Rossi etc .

Let me just say that I have a certain amount of, ahem, *personal* knowledge into some of the goings on in the early 90s. Plus I know some about the F3 operation (their last year in F3 I do believe) thanks to my archive, as Paul Warwick drove for EJR in 1988.

Yes, Eddie did a lot of good - you can't deny that he was a good spotter of talent, but he also made a lot of mistakes. Like pissing off a major sponsor (Q8) of his F3000 team in 1988, so much so that they upped sticks and funded the Roni team instead...

 

[icowden]

Interesting article on the Beeb:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/articles/cj4vknj92jpo

To be fair, they did put some quotes around "almost flawless".

Lando Norris, who ran him closest, said: "Massive congrats to him. He's deserved it. He has not put a foot wrong the whole year. That’s a strength of his. He has no downsides, no negatives.

Lando clearly going for an order of the brown nose award or suffering from some form of memory loss. I mean - there was that time at the Austrian GP where Verstappen made contact with Lando and nearly put himself out of the race, the time when Verstappen made contact with Hamilton in Hungary and nearly put himself out of the race, the safety car infringement in the Sau Paulo sprint, the 20 seconds of penalties at Mexico city for trying to force Norris off the track again, the USA GP where he yet again forced Norris off track but got away with it...

So yes, almost flawless. Apart from all the flaws.

 

[AlanW]

Has anyone watched "Brawn: The Impossible Formula 1 Story" on BBC iPlayer.
If not, trust me, it's a must watch documentary 👌

 

[biggs682]

Has anyone watched "Brawn: The Impossible Formula 1 Story" on BBC iPlayer.
If not, trust me, it's a must watch documentary 👌

Watched the first episode and have the others to watch

 

[Beebo]

I bet Ferrari are happy with Hamilton’s statement.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/articles/cx2d2k05448o

 

[presta]

Stisted scramble, about 40 years ago.

 

[icowden]

Well an eventful weekend. The Stewards went nuts with penalties giving them out like confetti at a wedding, and according to the Beeb there is shock news that Verstappen has lost all respect for Russell (the shock being that he had any respect for any other driver in the first place...)

 

[figbat]

Well an eventful weekend. The Stewards went nuts with penalties giving them out like confetti at a wedding, and according to the Beeb there is shock news that Verstappen has lost all respect for Russell (the shock being that he had any respect for any other driver in the first place...)

It was dire, wasn't it? The wing mirror situation was just inexplicable, plus the safety car lights debacle, the will-they-won't-they yellow flags on the straight, the odd stop-go/drive-through penalties, not to mention the whole thing with George and Max. Max is whinging that George is a tell-tale crybaby whilst dobbing Lando in for not lifting in the yellow zone.

I watched the George/Max incident and in real-time it looked genuinely dangerous. The odd thing is the invention of a one-place grid drop.

 

[icowden]

It was dire, wasn't it? The wing mirror situation was just inexplicable, plus the safety car lights debacle, the will-they-won't-they yellow flags on the straight, the odd stop-go/drive-through penalties, not to mention the whole thing with George and Max. Max is whinging that George is a tell-tale crybaby whilst dobbing Lando in for not lifting in the yellow zone.

I watched the George/Max incident and in real-time it looked genuinely dangerous. The odd thing is the invention of a one-place grid drop.

There was definitely a sense of a lot of drivers fuming over some of the decisions. The wing mirror was really odd, especially as it then seemed to contribute to a string of punctures on different cars.