COVID Vaccine !

[johnblack]

Note this sober and balanced piece is dated 10 July so let's add "dated and OBE" to that. I think "sober and balanced" must be Guardian chosen adjectives, not yours.
What is the view of "opposition politicians" to the UK's approach to vaccine procurement now I wonder? "Forgivable?"
Who decides what the best strategy for vaccination is in the various member countries? Who are the EU's "most vulnerable citizens"?

I've copied some of the responses from another site that gives you a flavour of the thoughts of opposition at the time. I know it's politics, and so their job, but you'd like to think that they'd at least hold their hands up and say they got it wrong.

• Labour’s Catherine West (a Shadow Europe Minister) said “UK opts out of EU vaccine scheme – Dumber and dumber.”
• LibDem’s Munira Wilson (Health spokesman) said “Shame we weren’t part of the EU vaccine procurement prog, or we’d have early access to the Moderna vaccine, as well as Pfizer vaccine.”
• Labour’s Ruth Cadbury said “Brexit = leaving the EMA = longer waits & higher prices for new drugs”
• LibDem’s Layla Moran (Foreign Affairs spokesman) said “Walking away from the EU vaccines scheme is putting ideology ahead of public health. You would think that during a pandemic ministers would put political dogma aside. But it seems for this government it’s Brexit over vaccines”
• Labour’s Bell Ribeiro-Addy said “by refusing to join the EU’s vaccine scheme, the Government is yet again putting ideology before saving lives.”
• LibDem’s Ed Davey (LibDem leader) said “The PM must confirm that the UK will take part in the EU vaccine plan. This is no time for silly Brexit games.”
• Labour’s Paul Blomfield (a Shadow Brexit Minister) said “Backing the EU initiative for a coronavirus vaccine is a positive step”

Politics is sometimes down to taking a gamble and so far this one looks to have paid off.

 

[mjr]

I've copied some of the responses from another site that gives you a flavour of the thoughts of opposition at the time. I know it's politics, and so their job, but you'd like to think that they'd at least hold their hands up and say they got it wrong.

• Labour’s Catherine West (a Shadow Europe Minister) said “UK opts out of EU vaccine scheme – Dumber and dumber.”
• LibDem’s Munira Wilson (Health spokesman) said “Shame we weren’t part of the EU vaccine procurement prog, or we’d have early access to the Moderna vaccine, as well as Pfizer vaccine.”
• Labour’s Ruth Cadbury said “Brexit = leaving the EMA = longer waits & higher prices for new drugs”
• LibDem’s Layla Moran (Foreign Affairs spokesman) said “Walking away from the EU vaccines scheme is putting ideology ahead of public health. You would think that during a pandemic ministers would put political dogma aside. But it seems for this government it’s Brexit over vaccines”
• Labour’s Bell Ribeiro-Addy said “by refusing to join the EU’s vaccine scheme, the Government is yet again putting ideology before saving lives.”
• LibDem’s Ed Davey (LibDem leader) said “The PM must confirm that the UK will take part in the EU vaccine plan. This is no time for silly Brexit games.”
• Labour’s Paul Blomfield (a Shadow Brexit Minister) said “Backing the EU initiative for a coronavirus vaccine is a positive step”

Most of those comments are actually still accurate, especially if you consider saving all lives rather than saving only UK ones.

Politics is sometimes down to taking a gamble and so far this one looks to have paid off.

Yes, they bet our lives on early vaccination and thankfully seem to have won — this time. Does that make risk-taking a good thing in a politician? They seem to have lost their bets on unlocking in August and December, and delaying in October and January, but of course, it was not only their lives they're betting.

 

[mjr]

The problem is that they seem to think you can still catch it but with milder symptoms even with the vaccine......and also even the experts at this moment in time don't seem to know if you can still transmit it even if vaccinated. I guess it's going to be wait and see.

I suspect we are likely to see results from Israel first, where they have vaccinated more than 25% of the population already IIRC.

Will the UK learn from abroad, for a change?

 

[Ajax Bay]

Most of those comments are actually still accurate

With all due respect, most of the quotes @johnblack shared are actually not. Have a re-read of each one in turn. As for your 'especially' caveat, your use of 'all' is open to a wide range of meaning (and therefore reasonable inference).
Don't all these decisions involve balancing risk/reward?

 

[vickster]

Wales situation
Covid vaccine: Mark Drakeford faces 'go-slow' roll-out criticism https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55704017

Not sure why vaccinators would be sitting around doing nothing...aren't they mostly practising HCPs with a day job?

 

[Ajax Bay]

Wales situation Covid vaccine: Mark Drakeford faces 'go-slow' roll-out criticism https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55704017

I said upthread I thought this would not stand the test of scrutiny. More fool the FM for sharing. Is transparency always a good thing? Wales will have been allocated sufficient to achieve the groups 1-4 by 15 Feb (same with Scotland and Wales). But it has set up centres local and hub which have got ahead of themselves and the expected supply profile - well done the Welsh. Still think they'll (entirely reasonably) be forced to just get on with it. What's the priority: not giving vaccinators a few days off or getting as many people (within 1-4) vaccinated as the supply and delivery (into arms) capacity allows?

 

[mjr]

With all due respect, most of the quotes @johnblack shared are actually not. Have a re-read of each one in turn. As for your 'especially' caveat, your use of 'all' is open to a wide range of meaning (and therefore reasonable inference).
Don't all these decisions involve balancing risk/reward?

Going through each one in turn:

• Labour’s Catherine West (a Shadow Europe Minister) said “UK opts out of EU vaccine scheme – Dumber and dumber.” - true, the UK did opt out and arguably it was dumb.
• LibDem’s Munira Wilson (Health spokesman) said “Shame we weren’t part of the EU vaccine procurement prog, or we’d have early access to the Moderna vaccine, as well as Pfizer vaccine.” - true, but only just: EMA approved Moderna's vaccine on the 6th whereas the UK's MHRA approved it on 8th.
• Labour’s Ruth Cadbury said “Brexit = leaving the EMA = longer waits & higher prices for new drugs” - too soon to tell.
• LibDem’s Layla Moran (Foreign Affairs spokesman) said “Walking away from the EU vaccines scheme is putting ideology ahead of public health. You would think that during a pandemic ministers would put political dogma aside. But it seems for this government it’s Brexit over vaccines” - true.
• Labour’s Bell Ribeiro-Addy said “by refusing to join the EU’s vaccine scheme, the Government is yet again putting ideology before saving lives.” - true.
• LibDem’s Ed Davey (LibDem leader) said “The PM must confirm that the UK will take part in the EU vaccine plan. This is no time for silly Brexit games.” - false in that the PM didn't have to confirm it, but surely true in that it was no time for silly Brexit games.
• Labour’s Paul Blomfield (a Shadow Brexit Minister) said “Backing the EU initiative for a coronavirus vaccine is a positive step” - debatable.

So 4½ true, 2 undecided and ½ false. Please remember that I am not a member of any party and I am assessing the claims exactly as written, rather than the spirit or implication that they we may agree trying to convey.

 

[tom73]

@kingrollo maybe this will hammer it home.
Vaccine and it's back to normal ? Simple summary if anyone fails to see it's only part of way out and not a magic fix.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-b6360f40-84f9-469b-b6a3-a4568e161c4f

 

[Ajax Bay]

Vaccine and it's back to normal ?

Strawman. @kingrollo has never suggested this; and nor has anyone else. Good out-of-date (4 Dec) link though, if a little long and wide-ranging: but that's the BBC for you.

 

[matticus]

Did I miss something?? What is @tom73 trying to achieve here?

 

[nickyboy]

Lack of supply is an issue here too some of which is the government cherry picking and diverting supply to mass centres

You got any evidential numbers to back this up? Or is it another CC vaccine distribution conspiracy theory? I should be selling tin foil hats

 

[PK99]

Going through each one in turn:

• Labour’s Catherine West (a Shadow Europe Minister) said “UK opts out of EU vaccine scheme – Dumber and dumber.” - true, the UK did opt out and arguably it was dumb.
• LibDem’s Munira Wilson (Health spokesman) said “Shame we weren’t part of the EU vaccine procurement prog, or we’d have early access to the Moderna vaccine, as well as Pfizer vaccine.” - true, but only just: EMA approved Moderna's vaccine on the 6th whereas the UK's MHRA approved it on 8th.
• Labour’s Ruth Cadbury said “Brexit = leaving the EMA = longer waits & higher prices for new drugs” - too soon to tell.
• LibDem’s Layla Moran (Foreign Affairs spokesman) said “Walking away from the EU vaccines scheme is putting ideology ahead of public health. You would think that during a pandemic ministers would put political dogma aside. But it seems for this government it’s Brexit over vaccines” - true.
• Labour’s Bell Ribeiro-Addy said “by refusing to join the EU’s vaccine scheme, the Government is yet again putting ideology before saving lives.” - true.
• LibDem’s Ed Davey (LibDem leader) said “The PM must confirm that the UK will take part in the EU vaccine plan. This is no time for silly Brexit games.” - false in that the PM didn't have to confirm it, but surely true in that it was no time for silly Brexit games.
• Labour’s Paul Blomfield (a Shadow Brexit Minister) said “Backing the EU initiative for a coronavirus vaccine is a positive step” - debatable.

So 4½ true, 2 undecided and ½ false. Please remember that I am not a member of any party and I am assessing the claims exactly as written, rather than the spirit or implication that they we may agree trying to convey.

I'm genuinely bemused by your post:

The contrast UK Vs Europe roll out is stark.
would you have preferred to see us following the pattern apparent in the following:


https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-vaccination-europe-by-the-numbers/

 

[kingrollo]

@kingrollo maybe this will hammer it home.
Vaccine and it's back to normal ? Simple summary if anyone fails to see it's only part of way out and not a magic fix.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-b6360f40-84f9-469b-b6a3-a4568e161c4f

Are you drawing my attention to that article - out of interest -? or you feel I am advocating Jab and forget (I think you may have me mixed up with another poster)

I actually read that article at the weekend - its excellent. I see a couple of major threats to the vaccine and forget argument.

1.The calls to release lockdown early - as we get lots of people vaccinated. That decision should be based on infections and hospital capacity.

2.Any new variants (IMO these become more likely the more infections we have)

 

[Ajax Bay]

An alternative assessment, fwiw and reluctantly as this is so much water under the bridge, in italics:

• mjr = True, the UK did opt out and arguably it was dumb. Much stronger argument it wasn't dumb: so 'false'.
• mjr = True, but only just: EMA approved Moderna's vaccine on the 6th whereas the UK's MHRA approved it on 8th. "early access" - true, but in retrospect, irrelevant: the amounts of Moderna being supplied under the EU scheme (160M) which might have come to UK would have been small and anyway UK secured 5M (later +2M) Moderna (early March delivery) to augment the Pfizer (40M + 13% (6 out of 5 dose vial)) and OxfordAZ (100M (+>10% for the 'extra' dose out of each 8/10 vial)) supplies. Hopefully we can send the Moderna stuff to the EU instead, to help their deeply flawed 'all together' approach since we procured (betted on) sufficient supplies of two vaccines which work (and much, much cheaper, on average).
• mjr = Too soon to tell. Come on. Can't you even acknowledge that's just False and FALSE.
• mjr = True. False. Government rightly judged that shackling the UK to the EU Vaccines 'scheme' was putting public health ahead of political (communautaire) ideology.
• mjr = True. False. Government rightly judged that shackling the UK to the EU Vaccines 'scheme' was putting public health ahead of political (communautaire) ideology.
• mjr = False in that the PM didn't have to confirm it, but surely true in that it was no time for silly Brexit games. Agree false and though true in that it was no time for silly Brexit games, but irrelevant as not taking part was in the UK's interest, in prospect and doubly in retrospect, and merely perjorative use of labelling a sensible decision as a 'political game'.
• mjr = Debatable. Yes depending who it's positive for: EU maybe. UK: no (so false).

HTH (but keep digging if you want)

 

[Ajax Bay]

The calls to release lockdown early - as we get lots of people vaccinated. That decision should be based on infections and hospital capacity.
I see a couple of major threats to the vaccine and forget argument.

Decision basis sound, together with other factors, including the need to allow the NHS to provide treatment for all the other health ailments of the population.
A fatal threat to that 'strawman' is that noone is making that argument, well maybe the lunatic fringe (none on here).