Coronavirus outbreak

[vickster]

The foreign office team were initially. dealing with 300,000 Brits abroad trying to get home.

Indeed, a massive issue, from all 4 corners of the globe as it were - not exactly practical to shut the borders to people trying to get home. This included a friend of mine (a Consultant anaesthetist who specialises in respiratory disease/ pre-hospital medicine [air ambulance]) - was attending a conference in Columbia had a very tough time getting home after all the flights ceased!

 

[kingrollo]

As far as I am aware the NHS has no plans to change contracts of employment at the moment. Clinics will run slower and Trusts are looking at running 3 sessions and not 2 on a normal clinical day which will likely mean rewriting contracts for some staff.

????

Doesn't your second paragraph contradict your first.

Foundation trusts draw up Job description s - so each trust can do as it pleases

Also foundation trusts don't make you redundant - you are re deployed - usually you aren't re deployed into good jobs - it's the shite no one else wants - in our trust that is IT projects - as most people there just leave or go off with stress.

 

[kingrollo]

As far as I am aware the services opening up first are cancer, heart disease and mental health.

I was talking about the app - not NHS services.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

IIRC, the Italian health services were overwhelmed at one point, unable to even treat some people. Unless I've missed something, this never happened in the UK. We also built huge emergency facilities in exhibition centres which were barely used, if at all. We seem to concentrate on what went wrong but it seems to me our NHS performed incredibly and never came close to breakdown.

Touch wood.

 

[marinyork]

If the technology doesn't work, then it isn't going to have the desired effect. This is why I quote the British Computer Society's line: you can't use a big data solution when there is no data. So let's start concentrating on what will work (for example face coverings and changes to public transport) than obsessing about a flawed IT approach.

The BCS report was quite broad and vague. On the big data one I'm not quite sure what they mean and still not. There will be a lot of data in future. I think they probably meant using big data sarcastically and that getting excited about vague projects was a bad idea. There are a choice of words and another alternative is automated or other choices or words.

The government need to be much clearer as said by the BCS and others about what the benefits are and what their thinking is.

One of the reasons why the government want a semi-centralised system seems to me to be so the contract tracers can offer support, can prioritise any worrying sounding cases so people aren't dropping dead at home that we know has happened or picked up earlier. Another one seems to be that they can sort out delivery of food or other things. Talk of allowing someone to self isolate in a hotel seems a good idea. No idea why they chose serco though. This has been said by the government, but not so much recently. Telephone calls may be good for compliance. They may be good for wellbeing and reassurance.

The government should spell out specifically under which scenarios the app might be useful. So I can think of a few myself, this is not something I've heard anyone from the government (or outside in industry) say.

 

[tom73]

What’s your solution to minimising virus spread and coming out of lockdown? Genuinely interested in how this may happen given where we are at now in the UK (and not based on what’s happening in other countries or what might have happened or should have happened, can’t change the past). You clearly have a strong opinion On what should now be done or not done

@Brompton Bruce look's to have beaten me to it.

Strong opinion maybe so I guess being married to someone with a post grad in public health means something rubs off.

A quick fix as this app is being sold as won't get us out of this and public need to be told that.
Normal is not coming back for some time and we all need to accept that.
Before we go down the machine that go's ping route we need to get the basics right which we don't look to have fixed yet.

Contact tracing at a local level takes place everyday of the week by professionals who understand what data really means and how to use it.
The sad thing is over many years the mass we once had is not much more than a handful now.
Airports need a rethink when you arrive you are politely asked to do the right thing if you get sick.
I'm not asking for some airport worker to be waiting with a inferred thermometer ready and willing.
That is totally pointless currently the only way you get put into quarantine is if you arrive in the back of a lorry or in a rubber boat.
Buy a ticket and fly in and you're fine the app won't work outside this country.

We also need to fix the other ticking time bomb source of community transmission which on-one dare mention.
Prisons which are still waiting for any real practical solution or help from the government. Which due to an ageing population have wings that now feel like a care home. The app won't help with that either as no-one can even walk though the door with a phone.
Much talk is about having to redesign shops and officers to allow people to be safe. That's all well and good but it's like plugging a hole only for anther one to appear when no-one is looking.
Care and nursing homes will need a total redesign as will much of the prison estate.
Day centres, schools ,HE collage's , out reach services all need a rethink.
Hospitals ,GP's , clinics will need to find ways to increase the day to day stuff in environments that have Covid all round them that's safe and practical. Much has been done already but much more will be needed once surgery is opened up.
No app will help with any of that either.

On the PPE front if the media and jo public believe the care home sector has been thrown under the bus.
It's nothing compared to the Hospice moment who have quietly been forgotten in all this.

 

[vickster]

@Brompton Bruce look's to have beaten me to it.

Strong opinion maybe so I guess being married to someone with a post grad in public health means something rubs off.

A quick fix as this app is being sold as won't get us out of this and public need to be told that.
Normal is not coming back for some time and we all need to accept that.
Before we go down the machine that go's ping route we need to get the basics right which we don't look to have fixed yet.

Contact tracing at a local level takes place everyday of the week by professionals who understand what data really means and how to use it.
The sad thing is over many years the mass we once had is not much more than a handful now.
Airports need a rethink when you arrive you are politely asked to do the right thing if you get sick.
I'm not asking for some airport worker to be waiting with a inferred thermometer ready and willing.
That is totally pointless currently the only way you get put into quarantine is if you arrive in the back of a lorry or in a rubber boat.
Buy a ticket and fly in and you're fine the app won't work outside this country.

We also need to fix the other ticking time bomb source of community transmission which on-one dare mention.
Prisons which are still waiting for any real practical solution or help from the government. Which due to an ageing population have wings that now feel like a care home. The app won't help with that either as no-one can even walk though the door with a phone.
Much talk is about having to redesign shops and officers to allow people to be safe. That's all well and good but it's like plugging a hole only for anther one to appear when no-one is looking.
Care and nursing homes will need a total redesign as will much of the prison estate.
Day centres, schools ,HE collage's , out reach services all need a rethink.
Hospitals ,GP's , clinics will need to find ways to increase the day to day stuff in environments that have Covid all round them that's safe and practical. Much has been done already but much more will be needed once surgery is opened up.
No app will help with any of that either.

On the PPE front if the media and jo public believe the care home sector has been thrown under the bus.
It's nothing compared to the Hospice moment who have quietly been forgotten in all this.

Right... that’s all well and good. So what is the solution (and not the problem). How and what not why
For me that's what's missing from all the discussion - everyone says this is what we should have done, or what has been done badly or wrong, or what we should do, but not how we can do it...

 

[tom73]

Right... that’s all well and good. So what is the solution (and not the problem). How and what not why
For me that's what's missing from all the discussion - everyone says this is what we should have done, or what has been done badly or wrong, or what we should do, but not how we can do it...

Well the government as has always been the case needs to say we can't do this without help.
If they don't know what needs to be done then ask plenty others will.
We need practical solutions to the practical problems empower the ones at the bottom to get on with the job.
With the right tools at the right time.
PPE is still one big mess we still don't have a central register of who can provide what , or which companies can be turned over to make stuff. The amount they can make is not the issues someone working in a shed with a 3d printer can easily keep a small care home in a good amount of stuff. Or even the local shop allowing them to do more.
This is as much about the big picture as the little one. But that wont get the headlines will it
Maybe what also will help if the government stops counting single gloves as an item of PPE not to mention floor cleaner.

 

[vickster]

Doesn’t PPE have to be approved though for use in a hospital or care setting? Does man in shed also have to follow the approval process?
Different ‘regs’ than for a customer in a supermarket wearing a buff or home made mask

 

[Inertia]

Right... that’s all well and good. So what is the solution (and not the problem). How and what not why
For me that's what's missing from all the discussion - everyone says this is what we should have done, or what has been done badly or wrong, or what we should do, but not how we can do it...

Thats probably because its easier to see whats wrong than to know how to rectify it. I dont think that means we shouldnt point it out.

 

[vickster]

Thats probably because its easier to see whats wrong than to know how to rectify it. I dont think that means we shouldnt point it out.

No, but I posted because I want to know what’s going to happen and how, not what could have/should have happened. Most of this thread has covered the criticism in depth, those commenting haven’t offered much solution though. Maybe there actually isn’t one that’s workable at least at the moment when the disease is so new and not yet understood

 

[Rocky]

Right... that’s all well and good. So what is the solution (and not the problem). How and what not why
For me that's what's missing from all the discussion - everyone says this is what we should have done, or what has been done badly or wrong, or what we should do, but not how we can do it...

I've tried to offer some suggestions on the way forward.....in summary:

Face coverings for the public
Get the PPE procurement portal sorted
Get the army or a team of logistics experts to iron out the shortages (and gluts) of PPE across the country
Fix the testing chaos that I experienced at Coventry Ricoh stadium on Saturday (again put the army in charge of this)
Listen to the critics on the contract tracing app.....they might help prevent major problems and another NHS IT failure - work more closely with Google and Apple (it's their platforms this thing is going to have to work on).

 

[Inertia]

No, but I posted because I want to know what’s going to happen and how, not what could have/should have happened. Most of this thread has covered the criticism in depth, those commenting haven’t offered much solution though

They arent running the country and in many cases, probably lack the expertise. I know i do

and some are offering suggestions where they do

 

[Rocky]

They arent running the country and in many cases, probably lack the expertise. I know i do

and some are offering suggestions where they do

I'd offer to run the country but I'm too busy currently with my polyamorous lover and my mathematical models.

 

[Inertia]

I'd offer to run the country but I'm too busy currently with my polyamorous lover and my mathematical models.

Boris seems to manage, without the mathematical models