Corona Virus: How Are We Doing?

[winjim]

It's a legal requirement yet the requirement cannot be enforced? That seems a bit dubious. A store is a private establishment. That means they set the rules for their stores. If there is a law on the books that says people in stores must wear masks, then the store likely has the legal obligation to enforce that rule. It's up to them and they are within their rights to remove the individual that is unwilling to abide by their rules. At least that's how it's done here.

It's unenforceable because there are exemptions for the disabled, but shops are not permitted to discriminate on the grounds of disability so as I understand it they're not even legally allowed to ask if you have a valid exemption.

Plus I think that responsibility lies with the individual, not the shop, and even the police have said that they can't / won't enforce it so I wouldn't expect some 18yo minimum wage till jockey to have to.

 

[MntnMan62]

It's unenforceable because there are exemptions for the disabled, but shops are not permitted to discriminate on the grounds of disability so as I understand it they're not even legally allowed to ask if you have a valid exemption.

Plus I think that responsibility lies with the individual, not the shop, and even the police have said that they can't / won't enforce it so I wouldn't expect some 18yo minimum wage till jockey to have to.

Well, if I had a store, which I don't, but if I did, and I cared as much as I do about keeping people safe, I would go on the assumption that everyone coming into my store is able to wear a mask. So if someone did come in not wearing a mask, I'd ask them to either wear one, provide them one or if they refuse, ask them to leave. It would be up to the person to tell me if they have a disability that would exempt them from having to wear a mask. That way I haven't asked them if they had a disability. And if they could reasonably convey the existence of the disability, I'd use my judgement as to whether to allow them to remain in the store. I'm not sure if there is even a law here about that. But most stores I know of have signs that say "No Mask, No Entry". Seems reasonable enough to me.

 

[Nomadski]

Still furloughed. The joys of working at an airport retailer. Manchester T2 is predicted to only have a few more than a dozen flights a day in August so might still be a while yet.

 

[winjim]

Well, if I had a store, which I don't, but if I did, and I cared as much as I do about keeping people safe, I would go on the assumption that everyone coming into my store is able to wear a mask. So if someone did come in not wearing a mask, I'd ask them to either wear one, provide them one or if they refuse, ask them to leave. It would be up to the person to tell me if they have a disability that would exempt them from having to wear a mask. That way I haven't asked them if they had a disability. And if they could reasonably convey the existence of the disability, I'd use my judgement as to whether to allow them to remain in the store. I'm not sure if there is even a law here about that. But most stores I know of have signs that say "No Mask, No Entry". Seems reasonable enough to me.

I'm obviously no expert, and I expect it would need to be tested in court, but it's my understanding that that would still be considered discriminatory. I have read however that health and safety may trump discrimination legislation so you could have grounds to refuse service to non-mask wearers in order to protect the wellbeing of your employees.

 

[marinyork]

Well, if I had a store, which I don't, but if I did, and I cared as much as I do about keeping people safe, I would go on the assumption that everyone coming into my store is able to wear a mask. So if someone did come in not wearing a mask, I'd ask them to either wear one, provide them one or if they refuse, ask them to leave. It would be up to the person to tell me if they have a disability that would exempt them from having to wear a mask. That way I haven't asked them if they had a disability. And if they could reasonably convey the existence of the disability, I'd use my judgement as to whether to allow them to remain in the store. I'm not sure if there is even a law here about that. But most stores I know of have signs that say "No Mask, No Entry". Seems reasonable enough to me.

There are large issues around moral hazard.

If you own the store, it misses the point as you are creaming in the benefits, if you are a regular worker you aren't but taking those risks.

There are subtleties and different situations.

 

[fossyant]

The sensible thing to do would be to offer early retirement to the over 60s initially, see the uptake and use this to keep the younger less vulnerable in jobs. Then look at options for the over 50s.

I'll take retirement at 50, with all my benefits intact !

 

[fossyant]

Well, thanks Boris and the local idiots.... Given infections have risen quite considerably 'else where' within the North West, it's those of us who have been 'careful' who are royally hissed off.

I can't visit my parents, and my wife, after only being allowed to see her mum twice since February, can't see her. She was able to stand in the car park, and talk to her mum over 'skype' to her mum who was behind sealed windows of the care home - can't even do that now. We had to call her to say all her visits had been cancelled - she's quite upset as she's effectively living in prison.

Some Welsh don't appear happy allowing 'the infected' in so I can see the caravan site shutting again.

 

[winjim]

There are large issues around moral hazard. This is a concept you probably don't understand.

If you own the store, it misses the point as you are creaming in the benefits, if you are a regular worker you aren't but taking those risks.

There are subtleties and different situations.

Do you know whether discrimination law applies to individual employees or to the business / owner? Because a shop owner who insists on enforcing mask wearing could put their employees in a very difficult position indeed.

 

[Slick]

Do you know whether discrimination law applies to individual employees or to the business / owner? Because a shop owner who insists on enforcing mask wearing could put their employees in a very difficult position indeed.

Discrimination laws apply to everyone but employers are within their rights to ask employees to wear any additional PPE they deem necessary to keep their employees safe.

 

[winjim]

Discrimination laws apply to everyone but employers are within their rights to ask employees to wear any additional PPE they deem necessary to keep their employees safe.

Actually I hadn't considered the wearing of PPE by employees, I was more concerned with employers asking their staff to break discrimination law by making them enforce the wearing of masks by customers.

I don't think an employer can require staff to wear PPE if they're exempt though.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

First day back at work today and I've been going around factories and workshops. 5 companies so far, one solitary mask on view. No social distancing, one half hearted sign by a door about washing hands using the dispenser there, which was ignored by everybody.

I'm not surprised there is such a disconnect with some people when the rules aren't just flouted, they totally cease to exist in the workplace.

I'm sitting outside an office waiting to see someone just now because there are two guys in there coughing their guts up. Sitting in the rain is safer.

 

[classic33]

Actually I hadn't considered the wearing of PPE by employees, I was more concerned with employers asking their staff to break discrimination law by making them enforce the wearing of masks by customers.

I don't think an employer can require staff to wear PPE if they're exempt though.

To both, as individuals and as a company.

The ADA 2012 in America, has similar restrictions to the Equalities Act 2010 has here.

 

[Slick]

Actually I hadn't considered the wearing of PPE by employees, I was more concerned with employers asking their staff to break discrimination law by making them enforce the wearing of masks by customers.

I don't think an employer can require staff to wear PPE if they're exempt though.

Ah, sorry. It's still pretty straightforward though as far as I can tell as employers can't ask employees to break any laws which is why it's up to the police to enforce mask wearing.

Your last point could get a bit messy as employers can place you on unpaid leave if you no longer fit to carry out your duties which would eventually lead to redundancy. There could be other measures put in place depending on the circumstances, but as I said, potentially messy.

 

[fossyant]

We've had an official response about going on holiday and having to quarantine. Those who got caught out, then that's OK you'll get paid !

Those who go to a country now, have a choice of, if they can, work from home, or book extra leave or take unpaid leave. Seems fair.

 

[matticus]

First day back at work today and I've been going around factories and workshops. 5 companies so far, one solitary mask on view. No social distancing, one half hearted sign by a door about washing hands using the dispenser there, which was ignored by everybody.

I'm not surprised there is such a disconnect with some people when the rules aren't just flouted, they totally cease to exist in the workplace.

I'm sitting outside an office waiting to see someone just now because there are two guys in there coughing their guts up. Sitting in the rain is safer.

Not the case in our workplace. Or my partner's. Small sample, admittedly.

you'd hope that SOMEONE at your place would ring the alarm bell. But maybe not