Are we being forced to go electric?

[Alex321]

I drove down to Haverfordwest and back yesterday, (from Chester) in a diesel.

166 miles each way, according to Google.

I dread to think of the upfront planning I would have had to do to in an EV.

Very little.

OK Jones, rendezvous at 9.30 for start of journey (do not put your heater on!, don't use your radio or indicators)

Those use trivial amounts of charge.

Meet at 11.30 for charging.

Why?

No reasonable EV will need charging after just 2 hours, unless you are driving at 120mph (which is NOT happening in rural Wales).

You can certainly easily get from Chester to Haverfordwest without charging, then charge there while doing whatever you went for, and unless that is very quick, should be able to drive back without further need of charging.

But sir, this is rural Wales, you will be lucky to find a petrol station let alone a charge point.

More charge points than filling stations I think.

 

[lazybloke]

Energy density of lithium ion has obviously improved significantly (if gradually) over the years; 5 seconds with Google found this:

I expect that trend to continue, but high energy density is a potential safety risk in a way that petrol isn't (think dendrites).
Solid state batteries address that safety risk and give the high energy density that would end range anxiety and/or enable EVs to have decent cabin space without whilst remaining small & light.

Trouble is solid state is extremely expensive, the bill of materials is expected to be much larger than for traditional batteries , and to remain so in the long term. This could also exacerbate supply chain issues.

I'm guessing that by 2030, market share for solid state batteries will be very small; luxury marques and racing at first, and then a gradual trickle down to other market sectors.

Fortunately, the current battery technologies are good enough for the vast majority of UK car journeys, and as prices fall I'm sure most will be happy to switch to EVs by 2030/2035.
Those without drives for charging might still have range anxiety whilst awaiting better batteries to become affordable; they can always keep their petrol cars. Or move house.

 

[Pale Rider]

So your e-bike battery is not directly comparable to an EV battery pack.

It is, they are both designed to power a vehicle with high peak draw, and of course, they both use the same cells

You cannot say battery tech is improving while it remains the case a premium product from 15 years ago uses the same battery tech as a premium product from 2023.

 

[cougie uk]

I drove down to Haverfordwest and back yesterday, (from Chester) in a diesel.

I dread to think of the upfront planning I would have had to do to in an EV.

OK Jones, rendezvous at 9.30 for start of journey (do not put your heater on!, don't use your radio or indicators)

Meet at 11.30 for charging.

But sir, this is rural Wales, you will be lucky to find a petrol station let alone a charge point.

Tune in for the next installment.

A lot more chargers than you think.

Did you stop at all on the trip?

 

[Rusty Nails]

A lot more chargers than you think.

Did you stop at all on the trip?

Both sides in this argument seem to ignore the objections and points of the the other because they each assume that the way they do things must, by definition, therefore be acceptable to the other.

In my ICE car I could do the Chester/Haverfordwest return trip once plus another trip back to H'west without stopping, or stopping where and when I wanted to, without first checking charger availability. That is the way I prefer to do my distance driving but I fully accept that with a bit more planning it would not be a great chore to do it in an EV although forward planning is, admittedly,rarely part of my MO. My preferences do not impinge on those of EV drivers, and vice versa, so what is the hassle over.

As through history technology will develop and changes will result. If the technology does not do as it promises, both for practicality of use and for environmental benefit, it will fail to be adopted fully, if it does it will then dominate. No amount of crystal-gazing or griping by people in both camps will change this.

Live with it...and just enjoy the journey.

 

[icowden]

BIn my ICE car I could do the Chester/Haverfordwest return trip once plus another trip back to H'west without stopping, or stopping where and when I wanted to, without first checking charger availability. That is the way I prefer to do my distance driving but I fully accept that with a bit more planning it would not be a great chore to do it in an EV although forward planning is, admittedly,rarely part of my MO. My preferences do not impinge on those of EV drivers, and vice versa, so what is the hassle over.

Yet, you have to stop to put petrol or diesel in your car. Does that not form part of your planning? There seems little point in driving from Chester to Haverfordwest and back without stopping. Presumably you would stop at your destination. If that's a shopping centre, they have charge points. If it's a restaurant with a car park, they may have charge points, if it's a business they will be looking at getting charge points. If it's something else then there are likely to be some car parks around with some charge points. You leave the car charging then at the end of the visit you are ready to go home again. No need to go out of your way to find a petrol station. It is, in fact, easier than driving an ICE car.

The journey is 322 miles end to end or thereabouts. If that sort of distance is important to travel without charging you can get an EV with long range (if you have the cash) such as the Mercedes EQS 450+ (395miles) or a Tesla S Long Range. If you have even more cash, the Lucid Air Dream has 425 miles.
These sorts of ranges will likely be mainstream in 4-5 years.

. If the technology does not do as it promises, both for practicality of use and for environmental benefit, it will fail to be adopted fully,

Fair point, but I think it's already proving practical and environmentally friendly. Hence Go Ahead buying 299 electric busses.

 

[FishFright]

Both sides in this argument seem to ignore the objections and points of the the other because they each assume that the way they do things must, by definition, therefore be acceptable to the other.

In my ICE car I could do the Chester/Haverfordwest return trip once plus another trip back to H'west without stopping, or stopping where and when I wanted to, without first checking charger availability. That is the way I prefer to do my distance driving but I fully accept that with a bit more planning it would not be a great chore to do it in an EV although forward planning is, admittedly,rarely part of my MO. My preferences do not impinge on those of EV drivers, and vice versa, so what is the hassle over.

As through history technology will develop and changes will result. If the technology does not do as it promises, both for practicality of use and for environmental benefit, it will fail to be adopted fully, if it does it will then dominate. No amount of crystal-gazing or griping by people in both camps will change this.

Live with it...and just enjoy the journey.

Legislation will end the ICE and not personal choice.

 

[icowden]

Legislation will end the ICE and not personal choice.

I'm not sure it will end it, but it will likely reduce the popularity given the absence of new vehicles, the increasing number of places that old vehicles won't be allowed to go, and the expense of running them.

I'm sure that 100 or so years ago there were similar conversations about ostler's losing their livelihood, breeding stables going out of business, grooms having no work etc, just as there were concerns that books and newspapers were bad for people and killing the art of conversation.

 

[FishFright]

I'm not sure it will end it, but it will likely reduce the popularity given the absence of new vehicles, the increasing number of places that old vehicles won't be allowed to go, and the expense of running them.

I'm sure that 100 or so years ago there were similar conversations about ostler's losing their livelihood, breeding stables going out of business, grooms having no work etc, just as there were concerns that books and newspapers were bad for people and killing the art of conversation.

I should have ended their general use.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Legislation will end the ICE and not personal choice.

It will contribute to it. That and market forces.

 

[cougie uk]

Both sides in this argument seem to ignore the objections and points of the the other because they each assume that the way they do things must, by definition, therefore be acceptable to the other.

In my ICE car I could do the Chester/Haverfordwest return trip once plus another trip back to H'west without stopping, or stopping where and when I wanted to, without first checking charger availability. That is the way I prefer to do my distance driving but I fully accept that with a bit more planning it would not be a great chore to do it in an EV although forward planning is, admittedly,rarely part of my MO. My preferences do not impinge on those of EV drivers, and vice versa, so what is the hassle over.

As through history technology will develop and changes will result. If the technology does not do as it promises, both for practicality of use and for environmental benefit, it will fail to be adopted fully, if it does it will then dominate. No amount of crystal-gazing or griping by people in both camps will change this.

Live with it...and just enjoy the journey.

An EV will tell you where the chargers are and inform you when you need to stop for them.

My ICE car has never told me which petrol station I needed to use.

I thought this was the bit where we talk about the switch to EVs ? Have I misunderstood?

 

[Rusty Nails]

(1) Yet, you have to stop to put petrol or diesel in your car. Does that not form part of your planning? There seems little point in driving from Chester to Haverfordwest and back without stopping. Presumably you would stop at your destination. (2) If that's a shopping centre, they have charge points. If it's a restaurant with a car park, they may have charge points, if it's a business they will be looking at getting charge points. If it's something else then there are likely to be some car parks around with some charge points. You leave the car charging then at the end of the visit you are ready to go home again. No need to go out of your way to find a petrol station. It is, in fact, easier than driving an ICE car.

(3) The journey is 322 miles end to end or thereabouts. If that sort of distance is important to travel without charging you can get an EV with long range (if you have the cash) such as the Mercedes EQS 450+ (395miles) or a Tesla S Long Range. If you have even more cash, the Lucid Air Dream has 425 miles.
(4) These sorts of ranges will likely be mainstream in 4-5 years.

1. With a range of 600 miles in my car that is absolutely not a part of my planning for such a journey. For a return trip to Scotland it might be, but I might still not plan, just stop at any convenient petrol station.

2. If, if, if, if. I would not drive that distance to go to a shopping centre...I am not that sad. If it's a cafe in a mid Wales town or a roadside burger van or a lay-by in a picturesque site for a flask of coffee, all of which I am likely to use rather than a restaurant, they will not have a charging point. The points you are making show exactly how you believe that what you are happy with will be suitable for me and for that journey it is definitely not easier than driving an ICE car.

3. I have the cash but would never dream of spending that much on a means of transport. Those sorts of prices are out of the reach of many, especially those who do not have company cars with free/subsidised charging.

4. Possibly, and I will look at the options at that time.

 

[Rusty Nails]

An EV will tell you where the chargers are and inform you when you need to stop for them.

My ICE car has never told me which petrol station I needed to use.

I thought this was the bit where we talk about the switch to EVs ? Have I misunderstood?

Fortunately I have a brain and do not rely on my car to tell me stuff other than mechanical faults.

We are talking about the switch to EV.

 

[FishFright]

Can we have an end to a single , often fictitious, journey being touted as 'reason' not to adopt EV's?
In 368 pages there's been a ton of them and not one stands up to any scrutiny. We've seen an EV being driven to Norway in this thread so any journey in the UK is given.

 

[cougie uk]

With everything happening in the world today -the change to EVs will be one of the easier ones.

Climate change will have huge effect on us all.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...mfortably-hot-days?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other