Are we being forced to go electric?

[Grant Fondo]

@Grant Fondo coincidentally I’ve just received this email. Not sure if you have or can access this offer?

View attachment 695042

Thanks! Annoyingly BMW's generosity doesn't stretch to deleting adaptive suspension in the pro pack but still charging the same. Muppets.

 

[lazybloke]

There are MANY people who use caravans or motorhomes/campervans without using commercial sites. We don't even have a hook up in out campervan, though we have the fittings if we wanted to fit one.

If/when bottled gas is banned, they'll have to opt for another energy source or do without, it's that simple.
That's probably decades away; plenty of time to decide your course of action.

But the largest part of our usage is for the Sealed Knot, where we are set up for a weekend in a field with no facilities beyond water points and portaloos.

While the SK is only a very tiny portion of the caravan/campervan community, there are many other organisations which run events where the camping will be similar.

You forget the strength of EV sales. There'll be a tipping point where camping/caravanning venues won't sufrive unless they have elec supplies.
IF you want an offgrid experience you can continue to seek out those without power, but it's not really offgrid if you're burning bottles of calor gas in a plywood and formica box on wheels.

MArket forces will dictate that sites provide electricity.

And caravans will not be retrofitted with a large battery and inverter, because that would take almost all of them over their MGW

How close to Mgw are you?
Even with todays techbology, a 20 kWh battery only weighs as much as a tall adult male.
With the CATL solid state technology, maybe only 50 kg.

And I should think that the car you tow with, will in future be an EV with a high capacity battery; and will no doubt be able to supply your caravan too,, suplementing whatever battery you can fit within the caravan itself.

To put some context to 20 kWh, that's a continuous 5amps at mains voltage for over 16 hours That's a heck of a lot of power in summer or autumn. Winter spring could be more challenging, as you might need heating. I suggest caravans of the future are better insulated.

This all seems absolutely trivial stuff to me.
The only problem with carvanners is people stuck in their ways and unwilling to change.


CAmping is more of an issue, as battery, charging cable, induction cooker - are all rather heavy.
Those are the niche aplications where liquid fuels will remain, initially as fossil fuels, but over time an increasing component will be synthetic. Maybe they'll eventually be 'green'.

 

[icowden]

While the SK is only a very tiny portion of the caravan/campervan community, there are many other organisations which run events where the camping will be similar.
And caravans will not be retrofitted with a large battery and inverter, because that would take almost all of them over their MGW.

How about the lightship due in 2024? Sleeps 6.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/8/23626917/lightship-l1-electric-motor-caravan-rv-price-date

Lightship says its “no-compromise battery system” can keep the interior’s all-electric appliances (like a multi-burner induction cooktop) and connected features going for a week or more without having to plug in and without having to resort to propane or diesel fuels or a noisy gas-powered generator.

Or the Bowlus:-
https://uk.motor1.com/news/605701/bowlus-volterra-electric-caravan-travel-trailer/
Or Harvok:-
https://www.harvok.com.au/
Or the retreat RV:-

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcl6SP_8_dM

OPr the zeus highline:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_apHMQsA7bY

 

[fossyant]

If/when bottled gas is banned, they'll have to opt for another energy source or do without, it's that simple.
That's probably decades away; plenty of time to decide your course of action.


You forget the strength of EV sales. There'll be a tipping point where camping/caravanning venues won't sufrive unless they have elec supplies.
IF you want an offgrid experience you can continue to seek out those without power, but it's not really offgrid if you're burning bottles of calor gas in a plywood and formica box on wheels.

MArket forces will dictate that sites provide electricity.


How close to Mgw are you?
Even with todays techbology, a 20 kWh battery only weighs as much as a tall adult male.
With the CATL solid state technology, maybe only 50 kg.

And I should think that the car you tow with, will in future be an EV with a high capacity battery; and will no doubt be able to supply your caravan too,, suplementing whatever battery you can fit within the caravan itself.

To put some context to 20 kWh, that's a continuous 5amps at mains voltage for over 16 hours That's a heck of a lot of power in summer or autumn. Winter spring could be more challenging, as you might need heating. I suggest caravans of the future are better insulated.

This all seems absolutely trivial stuff to me.
The only problem with carvanners is people stuck in their ways and unwilling to change.


CAmping is more of an issue, as battery, charging cable, induction cooker - are all rather heavy.
Those are the niche aplications where liquid fuels will remain, initially as fossil fuels, but over time an increasing component will be synthetic. Maybe they'll eventually be 'green'.

Our caravan site can't get decent wifi, so we use our phone allowances. This isn't in the middle of no-where. No chance getting EV charge.

And our leccy trips with a kettle and a microwave, so 3 kwh is pushing it. We run one at a time.

 

[cougie uk]

Our caravan site can't get decent wifi, so we use our phone allowances. This isn't in the middle of no-where. No chance getting EV charge.

And our leccy trips with a kettle and a microwave, so 3 kwh is pushing it. We run one at a time.

They should get solar or turbines!

 

[icowden]

Our caravan site can't get decent wifi, so we use our phone allowances. This isn't in the middle of no-where. No chance getting EV charge.

How long are you going on Caravan trips for? The ones I listed have solar panels as an option as well as sizeable batteries to keep you going for a significant period.

 

[Alex321]

If/when bottled gas is banned, they'll have to opt for another energy source or do without, it's that simple.
That's probably decades away; plenty of time to decide your course of action.

Indeed. Unlikely to happen before we give it up (or indeed die).

You forget the strength of EV sales. There'll be a tipping point where camping/caravanning venues won't sufrive unless they have elec supplies.
IF you want an offgrid experience you can continue to seek out those without power, but it's not really offgrid if you're burning bottles of calor gas in a plywood and formica box on wheels.

MArket forces will dictate that sites provide electricity.

I fully expect all commercial sites (and certificated locations) to provide electricity in the very near future. Most already doi - though not manyt of them with the sort of power needed to charge an EV battery.

But the places I was talking about aren't "sites". They are a farmers field turned into a campsite for 3-4 days.

How close to Mgw are you?
Even with todays techbology, a 20 kWh battery only weighs as much as a tall adult male.
With the CATL solid state technology, maybe only 50 kg.

Most caravans have a payload of only 200-400Kg, and that has to include all your bedding, clothing, crockery, cutlery, pans, etc. And the awning if you have one.

We have gone over to a Campervan in the last 18 months (not anywhere near new, and privately converted from a minibus), so that would be much less of an issue for us.

And I should think that the car you tow with, will in future be an EV with a high capacity battery; and will no doubt be able to supply your caravan too,, suplementing whatever battery you can fit within the caravan itself.

Very probably.

To put some context to 20 kWh, that's a continuous 5amps at mains voltage for over 16 hours That's a heck of a lot of power in summer or autumn. Winter spring could be more challenging, as you might need heating. I suggest caravans of the future are better insulated.

This all seems absolutely trivial stuff to me.
The only problem with carvanners is people stuck in their ways and unwilling to change.

A very large majority simply won't have that choice without the "change" meaning giving it up completely. A new caravan is bleeding expensive - minimum is close to 20 grand. Which mans that the vast majority of caravanners buy 2nd hand, because they can't afford a new one.

And I am sure that old ones will NOT very often be retrofitted. New ones already are sometimes starting to come with induction hobs and bigger batteries, but they are designed and built with the extra weight in mind.

CAmping is more of an issue, as battery, charging cable, induction cooker - are all rather heavy.
Those are the niche aplications where liquid fuels will remain, initially as fossil fuels, but over time an increasing component will be synthetic. Maybe they'll eventually be 'green'.

I actually don't think it will be as much of a problem for campers who arrive by car, as for caravanners.

For backpackers and bikepackers, it will be huge. Though as you say, lpg cylinders are unlikely to be banned for decades. Nor the type of paraffin or meths used in things like Trangias, which are more practical for that type of camper anyhow.

 

[Alex321]

How about the lightship due in 2024? Sleeps 6.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/8/23626917/lightship-l1-electric-motor-caravan-rv-price-date

Too wide for British regulations (7'6" maximum). And over $100,000

Or the Bowlus:-
https://uk.motor1.com/news/605701/bowlus-volterra-electric-caravan-travel-trailer/

Over quarter of a million squids. Well over half what our (good sized 4 bedroom) house cost us 3 years ago!

Nonone of those are going to be cheap.

But I fully expect more and more such 'vans to be produced. And eventually for 2nd hand prices to be within reach.

I was just saying that existing ones are unlikely to be retrofitted to be all-electric.

 

[Pale Rider]

Toyota, arguably the major player in worldwide car production, is determined to pursue alternatives to simply slapping half a ton of batteries and an electric motor into a car.

This begs the question as to what is the scope of our (UK) enabling legislation to ban ICE?

I'm thinking particularly of Toyota's work on an internal combustion engine powered directly by hydrogen.

That should pass the test of zero carbon emissions at point of use, but is clearly still internal combustion.

Would such an engine pass the new UK regs?

 

[Grant Fondo]

We have got 10 7kw chargers outside the office. Why don't companies put rapid chargers in, is it a cost thing?

 

[fossyant]

My employer is involved in a major hydrogen partnership. Mainly for industrial applications, but the sticking point at the moment is its incredibly expensive to make (with electric) and the electrolysis equipment uses rare metals also. We are years away from it going in cars.

 

[Pale Rider]

My employer is involved in a major hydrogen partnership. Mainly for industrial applications, but the sticking point at the moment is its incredibly expensive to make (with electric) and the electrolysis equipment uses rare metals also. We are years away from it going in cars.

I read the Americans are getting into solar hydrogen production, possibly because they have lots of sun and space in much of the country.

Lord Bamford reckons his plant in India is going to do well with the JCB hydrogen ICE engine.

India imports all its oil and gas, but also has lots of sun and space for solar hydrogen production.

 

[fossyant]

I read the Americans are getting into solar hydrogen production, possibly because they have lots of sun and space in much of the country.

Lord Bamford reckons his plant in India is going to do well with the JCB hydrogen ICE engine.

India imports all its oil and gas, but also has lots of sun and space for solar hydrogen production.

You'll need a massive solar farm. Its something like 12 dollars a kg to make. Apparently current plastic gas pipes can transport it ok, hence looking at Trafford Park for the pilot, lots of heavy manufacturing in a confined area.

 

[CXRAndy]

We have got 10 7kw chargers outside the office. Why don't companies put rapid chargers in, is it a cost thing?

I would have thought with that many charging points they aren't capable of 3 phase 22kW charging.

I have 3* 3 phase Zappi charge points on a 100A per phase. I can pull 80A max to protect the supply.

 

[Grant Fondo]

I would have thought with that many charging points they aren't capable of 3 phase 22kW charging.

I have 3* 3 phase Zappi charge points on a 100A per phase. I can pull 80A max to protect the supply.

Its a bit annoying as the Audi EV i currently have charges at 143kw!