Afraid of descending

[Yellow Saddle]

I've been cycling for a couple of years on a hybrid and recently bought a road bike. I'm loving the bike and have managed my longest ride so far on it.

However, I'm terrified of descending and there are steep hills all around where I live. I do descend on the drops but scared myself today as I locked the back wheel trying to slow down. My new bike has rim brakes and the hybrid had discs so I need to get used to that. Is there anything that will help this other than practice?

Locking the rear wheel means you lose traction and steering. Don't use the back brake at all on steep descents. The highest braking force is achieved with the front brake only and just before the rear wheel starts to lift. This is counter-intuitive and difficult to master if you are already married to your rear brake.

Disc brake/rim brake. No difference. The disc brake and rim brake will stop you equally quickly.

Unfortunately fast descending is learnt in your youth and it is just about impossible to acquire those skills as an adult. However, you can overcome your fear if you apply sound principles, rationalise what's happening and practice.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Don't use the back brake at all on steep descents.

WHy do you say that? Genuine question as I've seen this stated before. Not trying to start an argument, just curious,
Is this just a racing thing?

I use either brake lightly as a preemptive measure prevent speed build up so I don't get into hairy situations. It's not braking hard, so it's not going to induce a skid. Naturally I avoid the braking on skiddy stuff like gravel, but I would hope to have killed my speed before I even reach stuff like that by reading the road ahead.

But I should note that I descend quite slowly compared to other riders and have no interest in doing so more quickly. Just safely and enjoyably.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

WHy do you say that? Genuine question as I've seen this stated before. Not trying to start an argument, just curious,
Is this just a racing thing?

I use either brake lightly as a preemptive measure prevent speed build up so I don't get into hairy situations. It's not braking hard, so it's not going to induce a skid. Naturally I avoid the braking on skiddy stuff like gravel, but I would hope to have killed my speed before I even reach stuff like that by reading the road ahead.

But I should note that I descend quite slowly compared to other riders and have no interest in doing so more quickly. Just safely and enjoyably.

When braking, you have limited traction on the rear wheel. Traction is extremely important for tracking (steering). As soon as the rear wheel starts to skid, there's a very good chance of the bike jack-knifing under you. A skid implies complete loss of traction and of course steering, because the wheel now just slides equally freely in any direction. Test this for yourself by standing next to your bike on a smooth floor somewhere. Pull the bike along the floor with your left hand whilst pushing sideways on the back with your other hand. You'll notice that it remains on track and won't budge. Now, lock the rear brake and to the same. You'll notice that the rear moves wherever you push it. The exact same happens at speed and is dangerous - even catastrophic.

At the front. When braking, weight transfers to the front wheel and is robbed from the back. This creates a situation where you have unlimited traction at the front and limited traction at the back. When I say unlimited, I mean that maximum braking is not limited by tyre friction but by something else - moment of inertia or overturning (endo), if you like. In other words, the bike with endo long before you reach traction limits on the front wheel. Simultaneously, when you are at the point where the rear wheel just-just wants to lift, that's the point where you could lose traction (steering) at the back. That's the point where even a little bit of brake application will induce the unwanted skid. That's also why you should not use the rear brake at that point.

Fortunately, the front brake works very well in that situation and it is thus perfectly safe (safer in fact) to use only the front brake and not the back one at all.

In any emergency situation such as a panic stop, the front brake alone can cause you to endo, but that does not mean you should not use it. It only means you should train yourself to the point of instinctively moving your body weight backwards when doing an emergency stop. I'm talking about training to the point of conditioned reflex.

Dragging the rear brake down long hills is not a good idea either. It heats up the tyre, which can pop off it inflated to maximum. It also heats up the brakes to a point where the pads start to melt and braking is decreased with increasing brake lever pressure. It is not a pleasant feeling. Long descents are best tackled with periodic hard braking and release. When not at maximum, it is still OK to use the back brake as well - not exclusively, but as well as the front. When it comes to maximum, such as a racer would do, the front only will get you the best and safest results.

There are plenty of riders in the above recipes and I agree that they apply only to performance-oriented cyclists and we're not going to get the entire population onto that regime.

 

[Sharky]

Last year I was descending down a narrow twisty country road, that I knew well. So was going at a fair speed suitable for the gradient and bends ahead. However, as I was swooping round a gentle left bend, a pair of horse riders came into view, taking up the whole of the road. Instinctively, I went into emergency stop mode and jammed both brakes on. As @Yellow Saddle says above, the rear wheel locked and started to skid, but again, instinctively, I released the brakes and regained transaction before continuing to brake.

I had no chance of stopping in time, but luckily, the noise from the skidding alerted the horse riders and the rider on the outside broke into a very quick trot and moved out of the way, just before I swooped past!

 

[Dogtrousers]

Last year I was descending down a narrow twisty country road, that I knew well. So was going at a fair speed suitable for the gradient and bends ahead. However, as I was swooping round a gentle left bend, a pair of horse riders came into view, taking up the whole of the road. Instinctively, I went into emergency stop mode and jammed both brakes on. As @Yellow Saddle says above, the rear wheel locked and started to skid, but again, instinctively, I released the brakes and regained transaction before continuing to brake.

I had no chance of stopping in time, but luckily, the noise from the skidding alerted the horse riders and the rider on the outside broke into a very quick trot and moved out of the way, just before I swooped past!

Can I be so bold to suggest (in a non finger-jabby and argumentative way) that as you weren't prepared for what you found in the road round the bend (could equally have been a big vehicle like a tractor using both lanes, or slow cyclists/horses going your way and a vehicle coming the other, or two big vehicles squeezing past each other ... or ... or ...) then you were going a bit too fast?

 

[Sharky]

Can I be so bold to suggest (in a non finger-jabby and argumentative way) that as you weren't prepared for what you found in the road round the bend (could equally have been a big vehicle like a tractor using both lanes, or slow cyclists/horses going your way and a vehicle coming the other, or two big vehicles squeezing past each other ... or ... or ...) then you were going a bit too fast?

You might be right, but on this occasion, it was the unpredictable nature of the horses that scared me. If it was a vehicle, I think there would have been enough room for me to squeeze past.

 

[Sharky]

You might be right, but on this occasion, it was the unpredictable nature of the horses that scared me. If it was a vehicle, I think there would have been enough room for me to squeeze past.

I think you may know the descent, it's quite a "thrilling" one. I'd climbed out of Eynsford from the memorial (which is quite a nice climb) and then eventually descending down to the Pilgrim's Way. Then I turned left and left again to climb up "Terry's Lodge", another really nice climb on my way back to Longfield.

 

[Jody]

Get used to how much power you can put through the front brake (which is lots). Unless you are starting to lean into a corner you can apply a lot of pressure to the front without issue. If you are applying a lot of front brake then get your weight back a little to keep traction on the rear.

Don't drag your brakes if you are doing long descents.

Front/rear bias should be something like 80/20

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Get used to how much power you can put through the front brake (which is lots). Unless you are starting to lean into a corner you can apply a lot of pressure to the front without issue.

Can you elaborate what you mean by that?

 

[Dogtrousers]

I think you may know the descent, it's quite a "thrilling" one. I'd climbed out of Eynsford from the memorial (which is quite a nice climb) and then eventually descending down to the Pilgrim's Way. Then I turned left and left again to climb up "Terry's Lodge", another really nice climb on my way back to Longfield.

Is that the descent down Cotman's Ash Lane towards Heaverham? I went that way yesterday. It's one of my favourite London escape routes.

 

[Heltor Chasca]

I'm not giving up my childhood so easily. Surely you all can't have forgotten how fun it is to pull skids? Sadly I'm not rich enough anymore to shred rubber like in my yoof.

Rear wheel skid is nothing to be overly scared of and if you can do them deliberately, you know what to predict and how to peel yourself out of a real life scenario.

None of the above counts for black ice. That stuff is just the work of voodoo queens.

 

[Deleted member 35268]

I've been riding years and I still scare myself some times down hill. Just lots of practice, give it time - like a year of riding.

 

[Jody]

Can you elaborate what you mean by that?

In simple terms you can’t brake heavily and corner at the same time. You may get away with scrubbing some mid corner but make sure you have an entry speed sorted before banking the bike over.

If you are travelling in a straight line then you can pretty much use the front brake to its full extent which will be when the back end lifts into a stoppie.

 

[cyberknight]

Last year I was descending down a narrow twisty country road, that I knew well. So was going at a fair speed suitable for the gradient and bends ahead. However, as I was swooping round a gentle left bend, a pair of horse riders came into view, taking up the whole of the road. Instinctively, I went into emergency stop mode and jammed both brakes on. As @Yellow Saddle says above, the rear wheel locked and started to skid, but again, instinctively, I released the brakes and regained transaction before continuing to brake.

I had no chance of stopping in time, but luckily, the noise from the skidding alerted the horse riders and the rider on the outside broke into a very quick trot and moved out of the way, just before I swooped past!

Sunday i was on a similar but unknown descent and i was on the apex when a care came the other way, not fun.

I think the upshot is go as fast as your enjoy and can handle safely , if your not in a race then its better to be in one piece than either in pieces mentally or physically .Still learn to descend but dont push the envelope further than you need to.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

In simple terms you can’t brake heavily and corner at the same time. You may get away with scrubbing some mid corner but make sure you have an entry speed sorted before banking the bike over.

If you are travelling in a straight line then you can pretty much use the front brake to its full extent which will be when the back end lifts into a stoppie.

OK, I understand.

Most people underestimate how much they can safely brake in a turn. It is difficult to quantify but I find that this little questioning method works. I'll try it on you, if you feel like playing. Others can also guess along.

Question: Let's quantify the "strength" of a curner/turn and give it a number of say, 2, where zero would be a straight line and 5 would be the absolute maximum possible with those tyres on that road surface.
Now, let's quantify the "strength" of braking. You are braking at 2. Zero is Zero and 5 is where your back wheel just-just lifts. Any more than 5 would see you do an endo.

Now, what is the frictional tax on the tyres if you corner at 2 and brake at 2 simultaneously? By frictional tax I mean the combined effect that has to be resisted by the tyres. Remember, the tyre can take 5 at most.