Afraid of descending

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
1.5kms is plenty of distance to overheat brakes if used improperly. If you descend slowly, dragging the brakes, then they heat up without the benefit of air cooling and overcook. However, if you go faster, don't drag the brakes but only brake in short and sharp bursts, they cool down sufficiently and don't transfer the heat to the tyres.
I've sometimes wondered about this and sorry if I asked this before: alloy dissipates heat faster than steel and rubber pads generate less friction than the old leather-and-worse ones, so why won't you melt modern pads long before heating alloy rims enough to pop a tyre?
 
Location
Loch side.
I've sometimes wondered about this and sorry if I asked this before: alloy dissipates heat faster than steel and rubber pads generate less friction than the old leather-and-worse ones, so why won't you melt modern pads long before heating alloy rims enough to pop a tyre?

Just to be clear:

I think you meant to ask about conduction rather than dissipation. Dissipate refers to how quickly it gets rid of the heat, typically by radiation and that would be dependent on the colour and texture and airflow, since heat dissipates by conduction and radiation and convection.

Also, you don't say what alloy but I assume you mean aluminium, because of the context. Steel, brass, pewter, 18K gold etc are all alloys. Some alloys have specific names like copper and zinc is called brass, iron and other metals and even carbon is called steel and lead and tin is called pewter. Aluminium alloy is simply called aluminium no matter what it is alloyed with.
The CoF of leather on metal is 0.4. I just looked it up on a table but can't figure out what metal. It does make a small difference.
The CoF of rubber on aluminium is about 0.6. This means that rubber brake blocks on aluminium rims work better than leather blocks on steel and hence, will generate more heat. Hence your question about melting.

That's because aluminium is such a good conductor of heat that it transfers the heat away from the place where the heat is manufactured. It is always created in the softest of the two materials and at the interface itself. The rubber is in close contact with the aluminium. Heat can't travel backwards through the rubber but readily travels forwards into the aluminium. Once there, it quickly transfers from the surface to the entire rim. The rim is mostly open to the air and the heat dissipates very quickly into the airstream and doesn't get a chance to heat up the tyres. If you exceed the rim's capacity to dissipate the heat, then the tyre will heat up - actually the whole rim and tyre will heat up.

If you use those same rubber pads on a Chrome-plated steel rim, you have a different scenario. The rim (especially chrome) doesn't conduct heat very well and the heat can't get away fast enough from the pad. The pad melts and you have lubrication, instead of friction at the pad interface and the brakes fail. This is what happens with carbon rims. Carbon composite is a very, very poor conductor of heat and the whole system goes belly up. That's why they use non-melt pads made from cork and wood shavings. They just smoke instead of melt. Yet, the braking is still poor.

In the example above, where the bike descends slowly, the airstream doesn't cool the rims enough and they overheat.

Sorry, CoF is Coefficient of Friction, a measure of the friction "strength".
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Aluminium alloy is simply called aluminium no matter what it is alloyed with.
And yet, we simply call it alloy when it's a bike wheel rim.

The CoF of leather on metal is 0.4. I just looked it up on a table but can't figure out what metal. It does make a small difference.
While we called pads like leather, they clearly weren't only leather.

I'm still not understanding why the better heat conduction of alloy/aluminium doesn't make it far less likely that you can heat the tyre up enough to harm it. While heat couldn't get away from a pad on steel quickly, the tyre is pretty much right next to the pad so don't we want it to conduct away?
 
Location
Loch side.
And yet, we simply call it alloy when it's a bike wheel rim.

I don't think you'll find that definition in the dictionary.

I'm still not understanding why the better heat conduction of alloy/aluminium doesn't make it far less likely that you can heat the tyre up enough to harm it. While heat couldn't get away from a pad on steel quickly, the tyre is pretty much right next to the pad so don't we want it to conduct away?

Your initial question was a bit tricky, but this one is more direct.

If you have two stationary wheels - one with a steel rim and one with an aluminium rim and you apply the same heat source to the spoke side of the rim, then the aluminium-rimmed tyre will pop off before the steel rimmed one. That's because aluminium conducts the heat through to the tyre quicker.

But, if you are running the two bikes down a hill, you will certainly be dragging the steel rim bike's brakes all the way down (because the pads are melting) and the slower speed will create less airflow around the rim and it will heat up quicker than the aluminium one. The aluminium one is going faster because the brakes actually work and the rider is confident.
 

craigwend

Grimpeur des terrains plats
I suspect that some of our posts are not helping allay fears of descending! :laugh:

I am surprised that people have not occasionally been hitting 100 km/hr on Holme Moss. I have touched 90 going down the A58 from Blackstone Edge to Littleborough and the A646 in Burnley after the Manchester Rd traffic lights as the road plunges down towards Rose Grove. Neither of those descents feel as scary as Holme Moss. I suppose the extra 10 km/hr would be hard to gain though, especially because pedalling is not going to help at those speeds.

Yep it's all gone a little of piste ... obviously not braking 'correctly' whilst descending Col de Pythagoras & Mont Verbatim
 

Pat "5mph"

A kilogrammicaly challenged woman
Moderator
Location
Glasgow
Pat, I have to turn right on a steep downhill on one of my routes. I signal right whilst braking with my left hand and take the middle of the lane well before so that traffic behind me doesn't try to pass. Then I keep both hands on as I continue to descend, braking as much or little as necessary ready to then signal again as I approach the right turn and move over to the centre line. If there is no oncoming traffic, I'll take the turn with both hands on. If there's traffic coming, I'll stop and put my arm out again until I can go.
That's what I do too.
Not very often, mind, as I avoid routes like that if I can help it ^_^
 

DaveReading

Don't suffer fools gladly (must try harder!)
Location
Reading, obvs
when you lean out at 45 degrees and your cornering force is thus 1 g.

Strictly speaking, 1 g is your acceleration, centripetal in this case, or linear as in your braking example below.

Maximum braking a bike can do without the rear wheel lifting is only about 0.4 to 0.6 g, depending on your body position at the time.

To calculate force, you would have to introduce mass into the equation.
 
Location
Loch side.
Strictly speaking, 1 g is your acceleration, centripetal in this case, or linear as in your braking example below.

To calculate force, you would have to introduce mass into the equation.

Yes I know, but using "strictly speaking" terms in this scenario would negate another chunk of the audience.
 
Top Bottom