Zwift Chat

[<Tommy>]

Tommy, if the auto steering takes you sideways out of the draft maintain a steady pace and its should pull you back in after a few seconds. Or ease off a little.

Using the Tron I don’t have any visual drafting indicators and always assume I am out of the draft until it stops telling me to get closer.

Cheers Bob. What happened in the example I was using is that I went sideways. Then I started to slip backwards relative to the other two. When I realised what was happening I put the power down but it didn’t put me behind them. Instead I caught up and then ride parallel to them until I was ahead of them. At which point they slotted in behind me.

I’m guessing in a future iteration of Zwift / turbos manual steering will become an option which will be good.

 

[<Tommy>]

From my limited knowledge. If on a conventional bike, when the rider is sat up and Zwift isnt telling you to get closer you're drafting. There is a position literally just behind another rider when Zwift says 'OK' best draft position

1-2 metres back still getting benefit . if you drop 5 metres from a pack, you will lose draft and need to ramp up power to get back on

The side sticky draft has benefits, but I tend to ease off and wait for the Avatar to drop in behind another rider.

Try a A cat ride and experience/experiment with trying to hold on to the group. You will quickly learn where its best to be

Do you not find though that you can be right behind another rider and you’re not sat up?

What I found myself doing when I was riding with you guys is trying to compare our w/kg to see who was doing what. But where we are all different weights it didn’t really help. You could probably say I’m over thinking this which is a bit of a curse I have... but... if you can save all the energy possible from drafting then it’s a massive edge to have at the end.

 

[Whorty]

View attachment 455379

I don't really understand how that ranking works. Jonathan and Jeff, who are D cat are higher ranked than B and C cat racers which doesn't make sense to me. Seems there is no taking into account the cat level, power and speed that people are putting out. Confused.com

 

[LBHIFI]

Drafting is still a bit of a mystery to me.

Do I have this right?

•If it’s telling you to get closer you are still drafting but not in optimal draft?
•if you are behind someone but you’re not sat up, you are pushing to hard and not getting benefit?

I spend a lot of time not sure if I’m getting any draft benefit or not.

The other one I had the other day is when you find yourself shifted sideways and then you are effectively being shifted out of the draft. I then put the power down but rather than slotting back in behind I overtook andy and Lars to the side of them. Then they put a bit more power down and it slotted them behind me. Anyway of manipulating this situation better?

Try doing a group ride ar 40kph. Stop and try to catch them again. The diff. Between sitting in the pack and going solo is huge.

 

[bobinski]

Andy’s suggestion is excellent. I learnt to better read the limited visual clues when I joined the zsun chain gang rides. They are paced at 3.5w/k so it was always a q of how long I could last and the only way for me to do so was to stay in the draft. Given I was often on the limit I had to look and work hard to stay in the draft as long as possible. I do remember a CG ride Dean joined and I am pretty sure we ( or perhaps just me) got spat within minutes.

Tommy,
When easing off be prepared to quickly apply some power to snap back into the draft and you should be ok.

Hopefully they will improve the visual cues and feel around the draft

 

[Whorty]

Try doing a group ride ar 40kph. Stop and try to catch them again. The diff. Between sitting in the pack and going solo is huge.

Yes, sure is. In my race yesterday I was in a group of about 20 which wittled down to about 12-15 with 2 km to go. I was towards the back of the group (we had just come up Whitehall climb and the stronger riders were stretching the group). We hit the Strand OK and I'm behind 2 riders, and in their draft, that get caught in the sticky draft of a slower rider we're trying to pass. That split second created a gap to the group. I pulled past the 2 guys I was drafting but by now I was 10 metres back. I pushed really hard to get back on but even pushing over 300 watts they were pulling away, even though when I was in the group 230 had me moving at their pace. I ended up losing 11 seconds to the guys who came 1st and 2nd in C cat that I was tracking in the group

 

[Whorty]

Andy’s suggestion is excellent. I learnt to better read the limited visual clues when I joined the zsun chain gang rides. They are paced at 3.5w/k so it was always a q of how long I could last and the only way for me to do so was to stay in the draft. Given I was often on the limit I had to look and work hard to stay in the draft as long as possible. I do remember a CG ride Dean joined and I am pretty sure we ( or perhaps just me) got spat within minutes.

Tommy,
When easing off be prepared to quickly apply some power to snap back into the draft and you should be ok.

Hopefully they will improve the visual cues and feel around the draft

It's all about knowing the roads too, where the flats are (easy for drafting) , where the lumps are and hence where people will be pushing hard. Very tactical and you need to stay alert the whole time. So easy to get spat out, so hard to get back on again once you're out and your own!

 

[<Tommy>]

All good advice thanks guys

But... it doesn’t strictly answer what I’m trying to work out. Because what I’m trying to work out is how do you know when you are applying too much effort?

I understand that if you get dropped from a pack you are not applying enough effort. And then you have to increase your effort to re join. And this shows the difference between the pack draft and solo. That kind of speaks for itself. But there are times when I’m in the pack but I am not sat up, but I am maintaining position the same position behind another rider. Does that mean I am applying too much effort? Because if am drafting I am always sat up? Lee said to me that if I am not sat up I am applying too much effort to maintain the same position or words to that effect. Does that make sense?

 

[CXRAndy]

Its true the clues of Zwift draft arent obvious and difficult to read, there is no feel like with bkool or outdoors, where a noticeable drop in effort.

Its more subtle, what happens is speed increases for the same effort as opposed to resistance easing off.

Thursday s event i was desperate not to get dropped and end up in no-mans land knowing a solo ride is harder but much slower. I thought I had lost Tommy and Lars for good when i was 8secs off their pace. It was my extra weight and the fact they were only 2 riders gave me an opportunity to catch up. If they were in a group, there would be no way to get back.

Zwift has been muttering about improving the draft .

In the meantime riders have to be vigilant to the pack dynamic and position or you will be spat out of the back

 

[Whorty]

All good advice thanks guys

But... it doesn’t strictly answer what I’m trying to work out. Because what I’m trying to work out is how do you know when you are applying too much effort?

I understand that if you get dropped from a pack you are not applying enough effort. And then you have to increase your effort to re join. And this shows the difference between the pack draft and solo. That kind of speaks for itself. But there are times when I’m in the pack but I am not sat up, but I am maintaining position the same position behind another rider. Does that mean I am applying too much effort? Because if am drafting I am always sat up? Lee said to me that if I am not sat up I am applying too much effort to maintain the same position or words to that effect. Does that make sense?

Not sure that's the case. I always understood that if you're in draft, whatever power you are pushing, you will sit up. The exception to this is when the speed hits 50kph - at that speed your avatar will go back over the drops even when you're in draft. Maybe when you are in a group and not sitting up check out the speed - if 50kph or above this would explain it.

Probably also worth saying, and this is stating the bleeding obvious, but the more you race the more you'll get used to it. You'll just start to 'feel' what's right, when to push and when to wheelsuck. It's not always logical and easy to explain.

 

[CXRAndy]

Because what I’m trying to work out is how do you know when you are applying too much effort?

Too much effort you go ahead of the others

I tend to keep a close eye on my position in the group watching the avatars around me. With all internet based events there is a small lag and it does alter the way I ride.

You need to be able to pulse in power efforts to counteract the lag of the servers

If you think about it each rider has some varying degree of lag, so each of us is pulsing effort go keep up. There is this small but repetitive pulse in power. Real life its almost instantly spotted and riders adjust accordingly and probably ride with a more steady rate of power.

It doesnt suit me physically, I prefer to hold a constant power. But that will see me dropped in double quick time

 

[<Tommy>]

Too much effort you go ahead of the others

Would you expect to go into the drops or stay sat up in that instance Andy?

Is there a thing where you get stuck behind people sometimes? Is that ‘sticky draft’? In that instance can you be applying more power than the person in front for the same result?

I know I’m pulling this to pieces but I seem to spend a very limited time sat up so I’m trying to get my head round it. Lag could definitely be a factor I guess.

I don’t have a problem sustaining the same pace generally in terms of consistent power with the pack. Well, unless I’m not strong enough, in which case I just get dumped sharpish! But I’m always surprised how little I sit up whilst in the pack.

 

[bobinski]

I think the higher you go up the cats the more important it is you learn to pulse power using cadence and that’s why so many prefer to race at 15% or less. It’s probably the only way to deal with the lag between what you see and reacting to it. Sticky’s input might be helpful here.

 

[bobinski]

 

[CXRAndy]

The sticky draft ive never fully got to grips with, but ive experienced it. If a faster rider passes you, your speed increases without you doing anything. vice versa your speed drops if you approach a slower rider from behind. This is what Carl brought up a few weeks back, the extra effort to break the slower riders affect upon your speed. Its noticeable on slower long climbs where it can take several seconds to pass someone.

That is the skill- for want of a better word finding the ideal position to stay sat up. Thats why the organised rides try and keep a really tight 'blob' to increase overall pack speed. If you're in the centre of a big pack I would expect to be drafting all the time. However the pack, like in real life, is like a swarm and you end up being pushed to the outside and lose the best draft position. I tend not to increase effort in that case, I ease off and wait for my avatar to slot back in behind. I only ever push harder if the pack is breaking up and I want/need to go with the front runners. Assuming I have it in my capacity to go with the faster group.

The Hare n Hounds are entertaining in that youve got a race within a race. watching your pack whilst watching the bigger picture of a fast moving A or B pack moving up fo catch you. You then need to ramp up power massively to tag onto their group. Timing of this effort crucial. Conversely when your group catches a slower pack you need to ramp your effort to break the slow sticky draft and blast through their pack to stay with your own