Why can't I just do it - Lawyer's lips drive me mad!

[cougie uk]

What's wrong?...... A puncture today, and no great drama except that it took about 20 minutes and frozen hands before I successfully replaced the inner tube. I am very irritated whenever I remove the front wheel. Quick Release - that's a joke, more like slow release as it would be quicker with nuts and a ring spanner. Why don't I just take a file to the lawyer's lips? I cycled my first 30+ years without lawyer's lips and I'm confident the (internal cam type) quick-release will continue to operate as designed, but that voice in my head says 'don't do it'. One day I'll just wield the file in anger. Rant over.

It's just open the QR and then a few more turns. A couple of seconds ?

If that annoys you - you don't want thru axles when you do need to get your tools out.

 

[Marchrider]

Genuine question, do you have bike/s with quick release and if so is there the possibility they are part of the fork and you've just not realised?

no

 

[Sharky]

One argument to support LL's .....

I organised a works bike ride. One of the ladies who took part had tightened up her wheel, using the qr lever like a "wing nut"!

I spotted that the curvature of the lever was the wrong way round and showed her how it worked.

Good thing she had LL's on her bike.

 

[lazybloke]

People keep using the Daily Mail approach to commentary. Add in unnecessary, derogatory words to make something appear more dramatic and contrary than it really is.

There’s no “faffing” involved, you just get on and do it

Yes, some divas on here, or at least a few that could benefit from learning some patience; although do I have sympathy for @FrankCrank having LLs on the inside of the dropouts. Sounds like the brazer had a liquid lunch before assembling that fork.

Through axels are much slower

One good spelling. One brain fart.

 

[EckyH]

I spotted that the curvature of the lever was the wrong way round and showed her how it worked.
Good thing she had LL's on her bike.

What did the LLs prevent in that specific case? Was the QR loose?

Can't and won't speak for other people. I know the purpose of quick releases and how to use them properly.
Pre ride checks are mandatory for me, not optional. One of these checks for me is to lift the bike at 5cm or so and let it carefully drop down (wheels down, of course). That tells me without damaging wether the front fell of, something is loose or something is rattling.
Therefore I don't need LLs as an "insurance".

The bike industry forces LLs or similar techniques which contradict the quick in quick releases.

E.

 

[C R]

Pictured below is my solution to that particular non-problem (but yes, if it was a non problem then why did I do it? A moment of OCD while I had a white touch up paint in my hand!).
You will soon know if you are a full turn out. And if you're worried about the cosmetics, put the blob of paint on the underside.
BTW, I am on the side of LL's being no big deal.

View attachment 760209

I might try that, thanks.

 

[wafter]

I might try that, thanks.

Another option once the QR has been released is to hold the nut and unscrew the lever a known amount of turns to clear the lips, then repeat the process in reverse when refitting.. although in practice I usually forget how many turns / have to tweak it anyway.. perhaps amalgamating the two might be more satisfactory..

 

[Fastpedaller]

File them off, very little risk of altering the heat treatment (as opposed to a grinder). I've rolled off on my bike with the quick release undone, it felt a little wobbly , I stopped and fixed it. Disc brakes,no lawyer Lipps, no crash. Redundant and idiotic thing designed to protect morons from themselves.

All very well, however when someone new to cycling sees a 'regular cyclist' twiddling the quick-release around to loosen it a couple of turns to enable the wheel to be released they may copy this motion thinking that's the way to fasten it and never know there is a cam which needs tightening. Many years ago at a time-trial venue I saw someone do just that (twiddle the QR, not use the cam). I felt obliged to speak to him and when I lifted his bike and brought my hand down on the top of the wheel it fell off -this was, of course before lawyers lips. He was pretty shocked and thanked me for advice on how to correctly tighten it. A loose wheel (even if there are lawyers lips) could cause a bad crash.

 

[figbat]

What did the LLs prevent in that specific case? Was the QR loose?

Can't and won't speak for other people. I know the purpose of quick releases and how to use them properly.
Pre ride checks are mandatory for me, not optional. One of these checks for me is to lift the bike at 5cm or so and let it carefully drop down (wheels down, of course). That tells me without damaging wether the front fell of, something is loose or something is rattling.
Therefore I don't need LLs as an "insurance".

The bike industry forces LLs or similar techniques which contradict the quick in quick releases.

E.

Unless you have your bikes hand-built to your own spec, the manufacturers are making bikes for a wide range of unknown users - they aren’t made just for you.

And I challenge you to change a wheel using a LL-equipped QR vs using a nutted axle and then see which one is “quick”. It could be argued that “quick release” is quick release of tension, which remains true.

 

[presta]

I changed the front tyre on a bike once, went for a 10 mile ride to test it was all okay, turned into my road at the end of the ride and noticed the QR was completely loose, I'd not even attempted to close it. Without lawyers lips I'm convinced I would have had an accident. I still don't know how I didn't realise the wheel was so loose.

Someone undid the front wheel nuts whilst my bike was parked once. I noticed, but as I didn't have a spanner, I just did them up finger tight and carefully rode a mile home (no LLs).

Pictured below is my solution to that particular non-problem (but yes, if it was a non problem then why did I do it? A moment of OCD while I had a white touch up paint in my hand!).
You will soon know if you are a full turn out. And if you're worried about the cosmetics, put the blob of paint on the underside.
BTW, I am on the side of LL's being no big deal.

View attachment 760209

I have the locknut on one end of each axle marked for entirely different reasons.

When the bike was new it drove me up the wall because every time I took a wheel out, it went back off centre and either needed the brakes readjusting or repeated ins and outs until it centred. Yes it was seated properly, and no there wasn't debris in the dropout.

Eventually I realised it was the axles that were very slightly out of true, so I marked them so that I could refit them in the same orientation each time. Problem solved. I've been making sure there's a mark on each axle ever since.

the trial-and-error required to screw it back to the right place so that it'll cam shut at the right tightness when refitted

I do that by sighting the angle the lever makes when it's just taken the slack out, before it tightens. Another reason I haven't filed the LLs off is that I think you'd need a Nylok skewer nut to stop it going out of adjustment anyway.

Pre ride checks are mandatory for me, not optional.

I once rode off without hooking the straddle cables back on. Fortunately I applied a brake as I was trundling off the patio onto the drive.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Both vintage road bikes never had lawyer lips

Vintage had wing nuts, predating QR.

 

[lostinthought]

Another reason I haven't filed the LLs off is that I think you'd need a Nylok skewer nut to stop it going out of adjustment anyway.

From memory, some designs of skewer nut (Shimano?) have an o-ring/plastic insert for this purpose. I just checked my Campag ones- there doesn't appear to be any insert, but the nut is tightly fitted, requiring a little effort to turn. I've certainly never had an issue with losing adjustment across any number of different wheels and skewers, in any case.

 

[faster]

This thread is a really fascinating insight into how some people's minds work. Similar to the hysteria when plastic bottle tops started being attached to bottles, one wonders how many manage to cope with day to day life.

Dealing with lawyer lips must add about 5 seconds to each wheel change, maybe 10 at a push once you've done it a few times. If it's taking you much longer there's something else going on. Mild OCD maybe?

In amongst this thread there are some really pathetic arguments - it's almost like a helmet thread.

Incidentally, a friend of mine has had a crash caused by the front wheel falling off. He's actually a really clever guy and embarrassingly enough for him, an engineer.

The results of the crash were catastrophic. You'd barely be able to tell anything had happened now other than a bit of facial scarring, but recovery took a good few years. I can't remember what the final tally was, but the number of operations and painful dental procedures he needed to go through was well into double figures.

Whether you like it or not, everyone makes mistakes.

 

[Ian H]

Lawyers' lips negate the chief safety aspect of QRs, which is that, once set, they are simple to reliably tighten when replacing the wheel. It has been known for people to think that you merely wind the lever round to secure the wheel. The only bike I didn't remove the lips from was an elderly MTB with disc brakes (before manufacturers realised they had to angle the drop-outs differently).

 

[EckyH]

And I challenge you to change a wheel using a LL-equipped QR vs using a nutted axle and then see which one is “quick”.

Exactly that was my point: LLs slow QRs down.
Therefore I don't see any knowledge gain in a challenge where the outcome is predictable.

E.