Well knock me down with a feather...

[Flying_Monkey]

You're very good at presenting opinon as fact Monkey. You should make a career out of it.

Yeah, very funny.

The point is that this isn't just a matter of opinion, there are ways of comparing one cyclist with another, and some quite obvious ones at that. The point of The Virtual Musette lists is that the methods and judgements are made clear, so you can argue with them, but 'well I like Lance (or whoever), he's the greatest' should be treated with the large spoonful of salt that all fan statements deserve (just as people who think that the TdF is the only thing in cycling probably don't know that much about the sport... ).

 

[Panter]

The thing is, with all these great cyclists of old that keep being presented, I thought they were all on drugs and so don't really count?

 

[mangaman]

The thing is, with all these great cyclists of old that keep being presented, I thought they were all on drugs and so don't really count?

Er no - at least no more than modern cyclists

Pre the 1980s no real performance enhancing drugs like EPO / blood doping existed

Sure they have always taken amphetamines / alcohol /pot Belge to kill the pain and give a boost but these don't improve your performance over a 3 week tour

Have you not noticed all the drug busts in the last few years?

 

[Chuffy]

Er no - at least no more than modern cyclists

Pre the 1980s no real performance enhancing drugs like EPO / blood doping existed

Sure they have always taken amphetamines / alcohol /pot Belge to kill the pain and give a boost but these don't improve your performance over a 3 week tour

Have you not noticed all the drug busts in the last few years?

Hmmm. I'd have to take issue with that definition of what constitutes using drugs to cheat. If you are taking something to stop you from feeling so much pain then you will get an advantage over a non-doping rider. Whether the drug boosts your actual performance isn't really the point.

 

[Panter]

Just to be clear, my previous post was slightly tounge in cheek, but not very

I have heard lots about the drug busts, and also read the stories of these famous cyclists of old dying on fearsome climbs and their blood has been full of amphetamines and alchohol etc
I didn't know that EPO has not been available for that long but amphetamine and cocaine have been around a long time.

Amphetamine and cocaine CAN considerably enhance athletic performance if dosed appropriately.

Regarding my feelings on Lance, yes, I'm a fanboy. I don't know (but somehow doubt) that he's the greatest cyclist of all time but as posted before, that's a subjective thing anyway.
I haven't been interested in cycling long enough to give any sort of my opinion on that.
I don't think I'd even like the man socially, he seems to be too focused on winning and acheivements but that is obviously, pure speculation.

I do admire him though, he's been through a lot (so have countless other people I know) but to win the Tour Seven times is a hell of an acheivement and he's never been busted for doping despite (and correct me if I'm mistaken) all the restrospective blood analysis which goes on now.

 

[Chuffy]

I do admire him though, he's been through a lot (so have countless other people I know) but to win the Tour Seven times is a hell of an acheivement and he's never been busted for doping despite (and correct me if I'm mistaken) all the restrospective blood analysis which goes on now.

He was busted, retrospectively, for his '99 samples but the re-tests weren't part of any retrospective testing regime. The retrospective analysis that you are referring to is a relatively new thing which has been brought in since he retired. You also have to bear in mind that blood doping with your own blood (a technique that US Postal are alleged to have used) is almost impossible to detect.

 

[Molecule Man]

How long has blood doping been around for? It must have been possible for a long time.

 

[Panter]

He was busted, retrospectively, for his '99 samples but the re-tests weren't part of any retrospective testing regime. The retrospective analysis that you are referring to is a relatively new thing which has been brought in since he retired. You also have to bear in mind that blood doping with your own blood (a technique that US Postal are alleged to have used) is almost impossible to detect.

Thanks, I didn't know that

Do you have any links to news reports at the time or anything? (not disbelieving you, just interested to know what my clean-living hero has been up to.)

 

[Will1985]

Who said he is the best ever? I'm not going to read back to find out.

Lance himself says that Merckx was "the greatest of all time" - can't argue with that.

 

[GilesM]

How long has blood doping been around for? It must have been possible for a long time.

Blood doping has been around for ages, it has always been difficult to detect.

Have a look here, if I remember correctly the USA olympic cycling team of 1984 were quite open about it.

http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm

 

[Chuffy]

Thanks, I didn't know that

Do you have any links to news reports at the time or anything? (not disbelieving you, just interested to know what my clean-living hero has been up to.)

The '99 samples tested +tive for EPO. I don't have links to hand, but if you Google for David Walsh and a French journalist called Damian Ressiot (he broke the story while working for L'Equipe) you should find what you need.

 

[Panter]

The '99 samples tested +tive for EPO. I don't have links to hand, but if you Google for David Walsh and a French journalist called Damian Ressiot (he broke the story while working for L'Equipe) you should find what you need.

Thanks Chuffy, I've had a quick look but can only find allegations and accusations like this.
I'll have a good search when I get home this evening.

 

[trustysteed]

You're very good at presenting opinon as fact Monkey. You should make a career out of it.

Yes, he always is. And woe betide you if you don't agree with his opinion.

 

[Chuffy]

Thanks Chuffy, I've had a quick look but can only find allegations and accusations like this.
I'll have a good search when I get home this evening.

The piece summarises the case pretty well. You say ‘allegations’ in a way that suggests you’re not sure about the piece. Fair enough, but bear in mind that Walsh and the Times had been sued by Armstrong before, so they would be understandably cautious in their reporting. The key facts to bear in mind are that the lab carried out reliable tests on stored samples for purposes other than catching drug cheats. They found 12 positives. It was only because the French journalist Ressiot managed to connect the ID numbers on the samples with the id numbers on the testing schedule that it was possible to reveal that many of the positives came from Armstrong. A ‘lesser’ rider (that is with less Tour wins, less money, less power and a smaller fanbase) would have been absolutely buried by this (in my opinion).

 

[Panter]

The piece summarises the case pretty well. You say ‘allegations’ in a way that suggests you’re not sure about the piece. Fair enough, but bear in mind that Walsh and the Times had been sued by Armstrong before, so they would be understandably cautious in their reporting. The key facts to bear in mind are that the lab carried out reliable tests on stored samples for purposes other than catching drug cheats. They found 12 positives. It was only because the French journalist Ressiot managed to connect the ID numbers on the samples with the id numbers on the testing schedule that it was possible to reveal that many of the positives came from Armstrong. A ‘lesser’ rider (that is with less Tour wins, less money, less power and a smaller fanbase) would have been absolutely buried by this (in my opinion).

My big problem with all this is that there are just so many people who would love to (and who would profit out of it) bring him down that I'm sceptical.
If there is a published, authenticated piece of work to show that he doped then fair enough.

I'm also a bit unsure how the journalist managed, luckily, to tie the sample numbers up to Lance (and Lance only.)
In my lab, when we use unknown spiked samples for proficency testing, they are exactly that, unknowns, and I'm surprised that a journalist had access to that sort of information.

As I say, I'll have a good read this evening and try to understand a bit more about what has passed.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to add. If Lance did successfully sue the Times, he must have had good grounds to disprove those allegations?