Well knock me down with a feather...

[Hont]

Whatever you think about Bertie and Lance, it is obvious that Bertie screwed up big time when he dropped Kloden, and towed team Andy and Frank away from him, if he hadn't done that Astana may have got 1,2,3 in Paris, it may have just been doumb or it might be for other reasons, but whatever the reason, it was not impressive.

It certainly didn't go to plan () but I don't think you can call it dumb, because he spoke to Klöden about it first. Either they misunderstood each other (apparently they communicate in English) or Klöden is not very good at assessing his own condition. Either way Klöden cracked so badly I don't think he would have hung in anyway. He couldn't even hold Amstrong's wheel at the finish.

And it certainly didn't stop Astana getting a 1,2,3 in Paris because Andy Schleck was always going to get in the way of that.

 

[Will1985]

Err....there was absolutely no reason to initiate an attack in the first place Hont. It was entirely up to the Schleck brothers to attack (both being below Kloden in the GC) and for the Astana riders to follow. At the point of attack, Contador's advantage over the next rider was effectively 2'17" to Kloden as Armstrong and Wiggo were already down the road. It wouldn't have changed Astana failing to take out the top three spots, but it certainly wrecked Kloden's chances of a podium finish.

 

[Molecule Man]

[Am still waiting for someone to tell me why the TdF isnt the Blue Riband of cycle races btw]

Well, I'm a longish-term casual cycling fan (i.e. watched Tour de France on TV since channel 4 started coverage in 1986 and never raced myself), and the TdF is clearly still the most important race in the calendar.
However, in the last year or two, I have become much more aware of the other great races throughout the season. I watched Paris-Roubaix highlights for the first time this year and was amazed by how tough an event it is. There has been some really exciting racing in the other grand tours the last few years. They are just as tough, though maybe not always as competitive?
As I have learnt more about cycle racing, I have come to have a greater appreciation of the different talents involved in different events. I confess that some of this is to do with recent British talent, e.g. I thought sprint stages were relatively dull until Cav started doing well, but my interest will remain I think.
So what I am think I am trying to say is that the Tour may be the greatest bike race of all, but the other great races are not far behind in terms of toughness, romance, history, etc., and I think this makes cycling so much more interesting, that there is this great breadth and depth to it. I think it contrasts well with athletics for example, where it seems everything revolves around the Olympics, and everything else in the intervening 4 years is much less important.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Yes, he always is. And woe betide you if you don't agree with his opinion.

Yeah, right, what am I going to do, be sarcastic to you?

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Ah so we're eback to the "Lance is a tosser, ergo I am a 'proper' cycling fan"...

[Am still waiting for someone to tell me why the TdF isnt the Blue Riband of cycle races btw]

The TdF is the most prestigious of stage races - and nobody has claimed otherwise, so you are trying to create an argument out of nothing - but it isn't even the only type of race. There are others with claims to be the most prestigious day races for example. There are also harder events, different events. And there are different ways of winning the Tour. The TVM listing (for example) takes account of this. You could win it without ever taking a stage, or you could win it by winning multiple stages too, you could take the KoM as well as the Yellow, or the Green as well as the Yellow - for example.

And by the way, for the hard of understanding, I might indeed think Lance is a tosser (to judge from his public behaviour, he's not someone I would get on with), but as I have said when this question was asked directly, I also admire him as a cyclist, in fact I think he is one of the greats, just not the best nor even in the top 5. And yes, that is because I have some acquaintance with the history of road cycling - not as much as many other people here by any means, but enough to know that at least.

 

[Chuffy]

My big problem with all this is that there are just so many people who would love to (and who would profit out of it) bring him down that I'm sceptical.

Not sure where the profit is and the people who might want to see him brought to book (note change of emphasis) want to do so, not because they are just 'haterz' (cf the online fanboy brigade, and I don't necessarily mean anyone on here, there are other places where they hang out) or because they are French or any of the other spurious reasons that Team LA have floated, but because they don't like him being held up as a virtual living god while being a cheat and a bully. If there is any profit to be made it's from him not being exposed.

If there is a published, authenticated piece of work to show that he doped then fair enough.

I'd argue that the '99 results are just that. They don't quite equate to a positive test only in that they were conducted too long after the event for any proceedings to take place and they weren't part of a testing regime per se.

I'm also a bit unsure how the journalist managed, luckily, to tie the sample numbers up to Lance (and Lance only.)
In my lab, when we use unknown spiked samples for proficency testing, they are exactly that, unknowns, and I'm surprised that a journalist had access to that sort of information.

You'd have to read Walsh (Lance to Landis) which has a much more detailed account of how it was done. Bear in mind that if the samples had been tested positive back in '99 there would have to be a way to link them to the relevant rider. All the journo did was to put the relevant information together (iirc it was doping control forms from the UCI and the sample log from the lab. No-one would have had the two pieces of info together but both pieces would have had the sample ID number on them). The book also explains how it would have been virtually impossible to spike the samples (ie, to rig the tests).

As I say, I'll have a good read this evening and try to understand a bit more about what has passed.

I think that Crackle has the CC Floating Library copy of Lance to Landis. Perhaps he'll re-launch it into polite society?

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to add. If Lance did successfully sue the Times, he must have had good grounds to disprove those allegations?

Cannae remember exactly what he sued them over (it was extracts from Walsh's previous book, but I don't recall the exact content) but the article you linked to mentions the test results and the previous legal action.

As I said, if it was any other cyclist then no-one would question the results.

 

[Hont]

Err....there was absolutely no reason to initiate an attack in the first place Hont.

Some riders ride negatively and some try and take time whenever they can, because you never know when you are going to have a bad day. Only hindsight tells us the right strategy.

My contention was that it was not dumb, because he clearly checked that Klöden thought he could follow. My understanding of the incident was that he thought that they would both drop Frank and therefore both gain time. They didn't need to gain more time but it's certainly not dumb to do so if you think that you can. What went wrong, only Contador and Klöden know.

Much of the focus on this incident has been due to Armstrong's criticism of it, which I find a little hypocritical considering he did almost exactly the same thing on Plateau de Beille in 2002 when he attacked Beloki and his teammate Heras.

but it certainly wrecked Kloden's chances of a podium finish.

There is no way you can say that it certainly wrecked his chances, given how badly he cracked and how many unknowns there are. We don't know whether the Schlecks would have attacked again before the summit, for example. If they had the result would have been much the same.

You are entitled to your opinion that it wrecked his chances, as I am that it didn't really make any difference.

 

[Will1985]

We don't know whether the Schlecks would have attacked again before the summit, for example. If they had the result would have been much the same.

Of course we don't know, but the onus was on the Schlecks to initiate, not the yellow jersey. Kloden was wrecked by the acceleration - sure, if something had happened further up, he would have dropped but wouldn't have lost as much as 2'27". Watching it on the day, I felt that the Schlecks were content to ride away from Armstrong and Wiggins as a foursome.

 

[Crackle]

I think that Crackle has the CC Floating Library copy of Lance to Landis. Perhaps he'll re-launch it into polite society?

Nay not me. I think it was JTM who last raffled it, can't remember who it went to.

 

[GilesM]

Of course we don't know, but the onus was on the Schlecks to initiate, not the yellow jersey. Kloden was wrecked by the acceleration - sure, if something had happened further up, he would have dropped but wouldn't have lost as much as 2'27". Watching it on the day, I felt that the Schlecks were content to ride away from Armstrong and Wiggins as a foursome.

Exactly, there was no reason for Bertie to attack.

 

[girofan]

Exactly, there was no reason for Bertie to attack.

I thought Bertie showed the utmost restraint in not really attacking hard and dropping Kloden so far behind you would need radar to find him!!
What you have to remember, is that Bruyneel and Armstrong, and most of Astana riders wanted an Armstrong victory in Paris, even though Bertie was designated as team leader. This isolated Bertie to such an extent that he was riding without any assistance from his 'so called' team mates! Except perhaps Paulhino?
Most of the Astana riders backed Armstrong because they want a contract for 2010 with his and Bruyneel's team Radio Shack, not because they think Armstrong a nice bloke, or that he was the best bet to win the Tour.
So they were willing to stab Contador in the back to gain long-term financial security.
As for Bruyneel, a bigger KIPPER, (one-eyed, two-faced, bastard), the sport has ever known. Armstrong has him dancing on a string like a puppet. He has all the integrity of a shark!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Skip Madness]

Exactly, there was no reason for Bertie to attack.

There was a stage to be won.

 

[Noodley]

Exactly, there was no reason for Bertie to attack.

Oh FFS. Of course there was, he wanted to win and IIRC he was interviewed afterwards and Kloden had told him he was okay.

Wind it back a few stages and Lance got praised for reading the race sooooo well and making the jump and gaining valuable seconds....it's unbelievable.

I can see what some people see in Lance (honestly I can), but can't understand why so many people just ignore all the evidence. He's a tosser.

 

[GilesM]

Oh FFS. Of course there was, he wanted to win and IIRC he was interviewed afterwards and Kloden had told him he was okay.

Wind it back a few stages and Lance got praised for reading the race sooooo well and making the jump and gaining valuable seconds....it's unbelievable.

I can see what some people see in Lance (honestly I can), but can't understand why so many people just ignore all the evidence. He's a tosser.

Not trying to stick up for Armstrong in anyway, and I'm happy that Kloden was blown away as it moved Wiggins up the overall GC, I just think it was pointless and a bit dumb as he only impacted his own team mate (Kloden) not anyone else, if Kloden really told him to go that's fine, but I doubt we will ever know that for sure. Bertie showed he had the ability to keep team Andy and Frank under control when needed.

 

[GilesM]

What you have to remember, is that Bruyneel and Armstrong, and most of Astana riders wanted an Armstrong victory in Paris, even though Bertie was designated as team leader. This isolated Bertie to such an extent that he was riding without any assistance from his 'so called' team mates! Except perhaps Paulhino?

Maybe you're, we'll see how he gets on in another team, with him as the no questions asked team leader.