UK SUV Petition

[icowden]

[caveat: it's entirely possible I've misunderstood the tax system]

I think the tax system understanding is fine, but I don't think that's why EVs tend to be luxury cars. It's a simple equation of cost. EVs are expensive to make. Until batteries are as cheap as a diesel engine, EVs will be more expensive. If someone is going to spend a *lot* of money on car, they want the car to reflect that they have spent a lot of money on it. A 50k+ car will be expected to be relatively luxurious and to have the latest tech and driver aids. Plus all manufacturers are competing with Tesla.

Cards on the table - if I'd had the option I wouldn't be driving an ID4. I'd be driving a Tesla Y. Why? The ID is very nice. But the Y has electric seats with seat memory, and electric tail life, just as much room, better charging infrastructure and an in-car tech system which is so far ahead of the ID4 the ID4 might as well be running Windows 2.9. Same amount of money to buy.

 

[Alex321]

Whilst there are technical reasons for EVs to be heavier, there are also perverse incentives; many (most?) new EVs will be company cars, and AIUI the BIK system effectively gives no ceiling to a very big tax break for expensive EVs.

The BIK is based on a percentage of the list price of the car, where the percentage varies according to the C02 emissions.

For the majority of ICE vehicles, that percentage will be between 25 and 35, so if you change your company car every three years, you are effectively being taxed on the whole value of the vehicle. If you change it every year (not many companies will wear that), then you are getting a pretty big tax break.

EDITE - misread, you were talking about Evs. And yes, for those you do get a very big tax break - the rate will only be 5% even from 2027.

So many EVs are luxury heavy models because you get nearly 40% off them through the tax system. Remove that, and I'd wager that EV sizes and weights would come down significantly.

[caveat: it's entirely possible I've misunderstood the tax system]

 

[matticus]

Most of them are under 2m in width. The average weight of an EV is 1940kg with only 7 models below 1500kg. Part of the reason for that is that batteries are between 500kg and 1200kg (depending on battery size). The arbitrary 2000kg limit for EVs thus cuts out about a third of all EVs. Whereas if you apply that to ICE cars you are only cutting out a tiny amount of the market (usually the top end luxury cars).

Thanks for the clarification.

(I disagree with your other para, so may return to that later ... ! )

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Cards on the table - if I'd had the option I wouldn't be driving an ID4. I'd be driving a Tesla Y. Why? The ID is very nice. But the Y has electric seats with seat memory, and electric tail life, just as much room, better charging infrastructure and an in-car tech system which is so far ahead of the ID4 the ID4 might as well be running Windows 2.9. Same amount of money to buy.

I don't have any knowledge of the different model specifics.

But I do think the unlimited tax incentive for EVs must drives the uptake of the expensive end and therefore size of them as a class.

I'd cap it, maybe £30k, and/or use the money instead to offer significant direct subsidies for smaller lower cost EVs. I guarantee you'd get loads of people driving smaller cheaper much less intrusive EVs.

Massively subsidising huge, intrusive luxury vehicles is totally wrong regardless of the drivetrain IMO. In fact, I think it's a scandal given the state of public finances and services.

 

[BoldonLad]

In simple terms:

SUVs are disproportionately polluting and wasteful of natural resources,

SUVs are disproportionately dangerous and intimidating to other road users: because of their high bonnets, rapid acceleration, large size and ability to abuse the urban environment by mounting kerbs and going fast over traffic calming measures.

The large proportion of vehicles now sold as SUVs makes this a significant problem for everyone else (it wouldn't really matter if there were only a few)

Hope that's simple enough.

They may be "sold as SUVs" but, are they SUVs in terms of the negative characteristics you mention? ie, would re=branding (say) a Renault Captur (currently classed as a Compact SUV by Renault), as some other name, solve or mitigate the problem?

 

[BoldonLad]

That just isn't true. Firstly the term "SUV" is used for practically all cars these days. There is no proper definition. An ID4 is an SUV, so is a landrover defender or a range rover. EV SUVs are not polluting or wasteful of natural resources and research is being carried out daily to reduce the impact on natural resources.


But Electric SUVs have a huge amount of tech built in to reduce injury both to the occupants and other road users. My SUV doesn't have a high bonnet.

Not really. As we have said. When everything is an SUV all you are calling for is banning cars.

Exactly.

 

[icowden]

I'd cap it, maybe £30k, and/or use the money instead to offer significant direct subsidies for smaller lower cost EVs. I guarantee you'd get loads of people driving smaller cheaper much less intrusive EVs.

If you cap it at 30k that excludes all but 8 models of EV. EVs are more expensive than you are allowing for.

 

[BoldonLad]

Whilst there are technical reasons for EVs to be heavier, there are also perverse incentives; many (most?) new EVs will be company cars, and AIUI the BIK system effectively gives no ceiling to a very big tax break for expensive EVs.

So many EVs are luxury heavy models because you get nearly 40% off them through the tax system. Remove that, and I'd wager that EV sizes and weights would come down significantly.

[caveat: it's entirely possible I've misunderstood the tax system]

How about limiting the provision of "Company Cars", and/or the various favourable leasing terms available to certain employees?. For those employees who NEEDED a car to do their job, as opposed to the "perk" value, they could be compensated via expenses on a per mile basis.

 

[icowden]

How about limiting the provision of "Company Cars", and/or the various favourable leasing terms available to certain employees?. For those employees who NEEDED a car to do their job, as opposed to the "perk" value, they could be compensated via expenses on a per mile basis.

So now you want to put the brakes on rolling out electric cars?

 

[roubaixtuesday]

If you cap it at 30k that excludes all but 8 models of EV. EVs are more expensive than you are allowing for.

You don't have to choose my exact figure. But if there was a cap, you can bet your life manufacturers would magically manage to squeeze under it.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

They may be "sold as SUVs" but, are they SUVs in terms of the negative characteristics you mention? ie, would re=branding (say) a Renault Captur (currently classed as a Compact SUV by Renault), as some other name, solve or mitigate the problem?

The concern is the size, weight, bonnet height and acceleration of these things, which are the causes of the problems, not what they're called.

There's good data to show the trends in vehicle sizes.

 

[icowden]

The concern is the size, weight, bonnet height and acceleration of these things, which are the causes of the problems, not what they're called.

The problem is how you define which cars you want to put in the "don't like" category.

 

[BoldonLad]

So now you want to put the brakes on rolling out electric cars?

Where did I say that?

 

[matticus]

The problem is how you define which cars you want to put in the "don't like" category.

Why is it a problem? We have construction/safety regs. Some of these apply only to certain vehicle types/weights.
So you can use objective definitions, no need for a "don't like" regulation.

Of course all these systems have anomalies/loopholes; but that's no reason not to try improving them!

 

[BoldonLad]

The concern is the size, weight, bonnet height and acceleration of these things, which are the causes of the problems, not what they're called.

There's good data to show the trends in vehicle sizes.

I have owned* a Renault Captur, not a bad car (sorry, compact SUV) but, acceleration was not one of it's strong points

* past tense note