Tubeless woes pt4?

[Dogtrousers]

yep and even with the right tyres they leak air around the rims like crazy, by far my worst tubeless setup experience so far but they are solid now.

Oh no ... don't mention solid tyres

 

[keithmac]

Yes, Mavic. Google "UST".

At least I think that's what you mean. Doesn't need rim tape. Or, with appropriate tyres, sealant.

That looks more like it 👍

 

[Alex321]

@T4tomo interesting comment about running tubed conti 5000 rather than TL in the winter. I’ve never quite understood the concept of winter v summer tyres unless for grip or special winter conditions. What’s your thinking here?

Winter conditions generally mean more debris on the road, so more puncture protection is needed.

There also tends to be less grip on wet and cold roads, so grippier tyres are better.

But both of these mean heavier tyres, so weight weenies will often prefer a lighter, slightly faster tyre for summer use.

 

[I like Skol]

We all know you don’t like or see the point of tubeless, but you’re starting to turn every tubeless thread into a helmet thread, where the same same opposing opinions come out again and again.

Now, changing into ‘Helmet Thread Mode’ for Skol‘s benefit, here’s my opinion.

Not a broken record or helmet anti/compulsionist at all!

I work in the semiconductor industry maintaining million pound machinery so I know a little bit about repeatable reliability.

I also dabble in motorsport at clubman level (with trophies) so I know something about performance v dependability. I'm not sure who said it but a memorable quote from the F1 world that stuck with me many years ago was "to finish first, first you have to finish". Wise words!

I often ride multiple 100 miles a day rides (did LEJOG in 11 days earlier this year). I consider myself reasonably experienced at long distance riding which involves a varied terrain mix of gritty urban to remote rural and unsurfaced lanes. I do not generally experience punctures.

I commute by bike and get a rare puncture, usually when I am trying to squeeze the last few miles of life out of badly worn tyres. With tubes I can effect a rapid, simple repair and arrive at work with enough time to shower and dress before starting my shift.

NOTHING about the current tubeless technology appears to be compatible with any of these requirements. Ok, it works with MTB low pressures to prevent pinch punctures but for road bikes, nah! Far too many snags, pitfalls and failures for the real world. As it stands, tubeless for road bikes is little more than a fashion accessory. It might work for the odd few who are lucky or extremely anal about the set-up and maintenance but on the whole it is not ready for release.

I'll stick with my tubes thanks, but I'm not a luddite. I do have gears and disc brakes etc. Just choose your technology wisely!

 

[Alex321]

NOTHING about the current tubeless technology appears to be compatible with any of these requirements.

I genuinely have no idea why you believe that.

Ok, running highly puncture resistant tyres can have similar effect in terms of how often you need to stop & fix a puncture.

But unless you are doing that, most of us DO get punctures reasonably often. Tubeless are even slightly more effective at reducing that frequency than puncture resistant tyres. And when you DO get one that won't seal, the procedure is exactly the same as with a tubed tyre (for me at least). I just pop a tube in. Ok, when you come to make a more permanent repair, it will be messier, as that tube will be covered in sealant, but you do that under more controlled circumstances, at home.

 

[Dogtrousers]

I work in the semiconductor industry maintaining million pound machinery
[...]
I also dabble in motorsport at clubman level (with trophies)
[...]
I often ride multiple 100 miles a day rides (did LEJOG in 11 days earlier this year).

Gosh! Trophies, you say?

 

[alchurch]

I have done jogle on tubeless without issue. Later in the life of the tires one did puncture, and went flat before sealing.. I rode home with the tire "soft" then pumped it up fully when I got home . I no longer trusted the tire and replaced it.It was difficult to seal the new one. As mentioned, they do lose air much faster than tubed tires, but I doubt I would go back.

 

[I like Skol]

Ok, running highly puncture resistant tyres

No, really I don't. My previous commute bike came with Schwalbe Road Cruisers and I used a few sets of these without puncture issues worth mentioning. I changed from these when the quality went down hill and I received some deformed tyres. I then swapped to Vittoria Randonneurs (either Pro or the cheaper wired version) and these also sold as having some puncture protection and have maybe been even better than the Schwalbes. It isn't rocket science, just don't run lightweight racing tyres and you will likely be just fine. No need to use the dreaded Marathon+!!!

 

[I like Skol]

Gosh! Trophies, you say?

Yes.

 

[Alex321]

No, really I don't. My previous commute bike came with Schwalbe Road Cruisers and I used a few sets of these without puncture issues worth mentioning. I changed from these when the quality went down hill and I received some deformed tyres. I then swapped to Vittoria Randonneurs (either Pro or the cheaper wired version) and these also sold as having some puncture protection and have maybe been even better than the Schwalbes. It isn't rocket science, just don't run lightweight racing tyres and you will likely be just fine. No need to use the dreaded Marathon+!!!

I'll admit, my experience there is going from original tyres as fitted, which are often a skimp point on cheaper bikes (Schwalbe Tyrago on my hybrid), and which were quite lightweight race-designed tyres (Conti Grandsport Race) on my road bike.

On both those bikes I was getting loads of punctures. Marathon+ on the hybrid sorted that, and on something with 38mm tyres and the weight that bike was anyhow (13.9Kg), the extra weight wasn't much of an issue.

 

[Chap sur le velo]

I've said it before but it's worth repeating. Why try to re-invent the wheel?

Tubes and sensible tyres (and I don't mean Marathon+'s!) Work perfectly.

Do you apply same "logic" to all new inventions?

Define "perfectly"?

Ok so you dont want to be an early adopter(tee hee), but cant you see if everyone shared your view, we'd still be using solid wheels?

 

[T4tomo]

@T4tomo interesting comment about running tubed conti 5000 rather than TL in the winter. I’ve never quite understood the concept of winter v summer tyres unless for grip or special winter conditions. What’s your thinking here?

For the record I said run Conti 4 seasons in winter, and rambled on to say the construction of tubed and TL 5000's were a bit different (higher TPI count in the tubed), which maybe why anecdotally people run tubed 5000 all year round with no issues, but people running 5000TL are finding lots of sealed (or not) holes in theirs.

re my thinking re concept of winter tires, yes for grip as roads tend to be wet and slippier, although i think Conti use similar compound in the 4S & the 5000s.
But also / mainly for puncture protection, both have the vectran layer but the 4S have duraskin too. In winter the flint etc on the road in more likely to get picked up by your tyres in the wet and I guess more washes onto the road when it rains in the first place. Good protection stops this working its way thru tyres, but you still need to inspect them and dig out embedded bits, that's just good sense.

For the record I also have some Lifeline prime armour tyres I ran on my commuter, which perform very similarly to 4S at half the price, they have a similar high TPI construction.

 

[Alex321]

I'll admit, my experience there is going from original tyres as fitted, which are often a skimp point on cheaper bikes (Schwalbe Tyrago on my hybrid), and which were quite lightweight race-designed tyres (Conti Grandsport Race) on my road bike.

On both those bikes I was getting loads of punctures. Marathon+ on the hybrid sorted that, and on something with 38mm tyres and the weight that bike was anyhow (13.9Kg), the extra weight wasn't much of an issue.

And after all I've said about the benefits, this morning was a complete disaster on my commute to work.

Just about half way to the office, I hit a pothole (which really shouldn't matter with tubeless), and it seems to have dislodged the valve slightly (I possibly didn't have the collar screwed down well enough). Flat rear tyre, with sealant bubbling out from around the valve, and nowhere else. I couldn't get it to hold pressure, particularly with the mini hand pump I carry on the bike.

So get the brand new inner tube out of the saddle bag, get one side of the tyre off the rim, get the valve out, pop the tube in, try to inflate it - no good. And no, I hadn't pinched it in the tyre, I inflated it slightly before putting it on the rim, and it went down again before I had the tyre on. I found a hole in it near the valve (on the inside of the tube), but the only patch I had with me was one of the Skab self-adhesive type, and it wouldn't stick.

So, I'd stopped next to a bus stop, check the time - next one not for over an hour, so I started walking, pushing the bike, hoping to reach an area with more buses.

Very luckily, after 5 minutes, the driver of a passing car stopped to ask if I needed help, and then put my bike in the back of his car and drove me right to the office!

I'm hoping that having taken the valve out then put it back (after the fiasco with the inner tube), I may have it seated well enough to pump it up with the office track pump - we'll see at lunch time.

 

[Dogtrousers]

@Alex321 you clearly angered the pneumatic gods with your hubris.

 

[Alex321]

@Alex321 you clearly angered the pneumatic gods with your hubris.

Must have been something like that.

What really made it super-frustrating was the fact the inner tube was knackered even though it was brand new.