The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

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double0jedi

Senior Member
Location
East Devon
People falling off without a helmet don't have that element to fixate on so moan about the bent brake lever and scuffed paintwork instead.

But doesn't that depend on the severity of the impact?
The inference I got from that is all accidents on a bike are minor and are something from which you can pick your bike up, straighten the bars and be on your merry way.
 

double0jedi

Senior Member
Location
East Devon
At the moment though the only people telling me they work are helmet manufacturers and people on here who believe them. I trust you paid your donation to Kask or whoever for a new helmet?


Sorry don't even know who kask is.
I just posted to show that the wearing of the helmet did not contribute to cause of the accident but may have helped the outcome.

Your reference to Kask, implies that I am some sort of compulsory helmet fanatic. Far from it, just recounted an experience and gave my opinion is all.
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
But doesn't that depend on the severity of the impact?
The inference I got from that is all accidents on a bike are minor and are something from which you can pick your bike up, straighten the bars and be on your merry way.
Sorry but I don't get which way you're trying to make your point. If it's a minor impact you're probably won't die without a helmet, if it's a major impact (for example when I hit the back of a truck at 25mph) a helmet really isn't going to change the outcome.
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
Sorry don't even know who kask is.
I just posted to show that the wearing of the helmet did not contribute to cause of the accident but may have helped the outcome.

Your reference to Kask, implies that I am some sort of compulsory helmet fanatic. Far from it, just recounted an experience and gave my opinion is all.
Kask make the helmets for the Sky pro team. My main point was that if you're going to wear a helmet, I assume you have replaced your dented one. A cycling helmet is really a use once and dispose item.
 
I wear a helmet while cycling, but didn't used to when I was a lot younger. I think years of riding and then racing a motorbike got me into the habit and now I feel naked without one.
When I had my off last week my head made a fairly heavy impact with the road and then for good measure slid a fair bit too. Did it save me from brain injury? No idea, but it did save me from smearing hair and scalp up the road.
As had probably been said it's all down to personal preference and how you like to live your life.
Just wish I looked cooler in mine!
 

shouldbeinbed

Rollin' along
Location
Manchester way
But doesn't that depend on the severity of the impact?
The inference I got from that is all accidents on a bike are minor and are something from which you can pick your bike up, straighten the bars and be on your merry way.
Not at all but even the severe bike wrecking impacts (Me 2011, bike and knee written off by a left hook hit and run from behind at speed, that infuriated the several drivers that stopped to help me) don't necesssrily involve heads, but there is no commensurate howling for knee braces, elbow pads, spine protectors, HANS type devices to deal with whiplash..... Yes brain function is a key element to life but a ruptured spleen or liver will happily kill you too. My knee will never be the same and, less so after 4 years of surgeries (and more with replacements to come when I am old enough not to be in a wheelchair while of working age), daily physio exercises, will be a detriment for the rest of my life.

I do wear a helmet as and when I want/need high level lighting options on a ride, This is based on my decades long riding experience, of falling and being knocked off and analysing my own contribution, that of others if involved, the manner in which I was/not hurt and what would have helped. I can say with total honesty I have not had an accident where I stood up (or not with the knee) and thought thank deity I had my helmet on, or I wish I had been wearing one.

My nastiest head injury was years ago in a helmeted crash as I faceplanted a sloping hatchback car and lead with my chin and nose, both split and bloodied and I had a hefty concussion from my brwin rattling round the inside of my skull. With hindsight I would have had to have a full face guard to make any difference & this was years before David Coulthard tried marketing one or Downhill MTBing got popular enough to see them knocking around in that context and who knows a rigid structure strapped to my head hitting a solid sloped surface could well have forced my head up and back damaging my neck.

Overcooking a corner which by default is exceeding the grip of the tyres is an example I give, to do that is not minor, it is pushing your equipment beyond its effective point, to reference it to helmets it is akin to banging your head and your helmet splitting or coming off because what has affected it has significantly exceeded its capability. ( many will argue this one tho)

The point is very few people on the side of choice not to wear a helmet are as unsolicitedly vocal or resort to the level of hyperbole and emotional blackmail that seems the norm for: I fell off with a helmet on and it saved me from death or a lifetime drinking through a straw and someone tying my shoelaces for me.

If you look at any cycling forum with a history of helmets (not like that :smile: ), it is invariably the: helmet saved my life, please wear one lobby that instigate the debate prompting a predictable counter response from the other extreme and an invariably circular debate until everyone is adamantly claiming to be pro free choice while passionatley arguing that everyone should uniformly follow their lead for the good of cycling.

or stooping to name calling.

P.S. @winjim's bottom smells ;)
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Saved my life ? Whose too know ?
We can't know, but the expected value is "extremely improbable".
Saved me from a life changing head injury ? Guess we will never know.
We can't know, but the expected value is "improbable".
Saved me from a hard impact and undoubtedly a lot of pain? Yes.
We can't know that either. Your senses may be misleading you.

Apparently we all have clipless moments , so I take it that applies to both helmet and non helmet wearers?
No, I've never had a "clipless moment". I think I had a few "clip moments" when I used toeclips but that was before I ever wore a helmet and I think I hit my knees and hands, never my head. That's actually something I don't understand about people using clipless moments to justify crash helmets: why don't you break your fall? Do you just let your head hit the ground because the helmet will save you?

Was there any way at all not wearing the helmet would have prevented the fall? I don't think so, but did me wearing it make me over compensate and cause the fall? Again I don't think so.
Again, that's begging some questions. As well as wondering why the head impacted, most importantly, did wearing a crash helmet impair your decision-making and lead to the misjudgement that caused the fall?

There is one argument about not wearing a helmet that I really do not understand. Some claim they can simply avoid accidents by being careful? Really ? They are able to control every variable in there lives?
No, of course you can't do anything about accidents, but accidents are rare. Clipless moments are human error and one's own silly fault. Avoid/Control/Accept/Transfer risk management suggests you take steps to avoid the risk, else to control the risk and only then accept the risk and try to mitigate its impact. If they work (and that's a big IF), crash helmets would be an Accept measure and wearing one when you're not Avoiding and Controlling risk is irresponsible.

That's the second time I've answered lots of @double0jedi questions and asked some in return, but there's no sign of replies to mine, so I'll probably not continue answering him/her/it.

Did it save me from brain injury? No idea, but it did save me from smearing hair and scalp up the road.
Unless the extra weight and target size of the crash helmet means it made contact with the road when a soft-hatted head would not have, surely?

A cycling helmet is really a use once and dispose item.
Or a "abuse once and dispose" item. Or a "don't use within three years and dispose" item. There are some people riding around out there in helmet models that haven't been on sale for a decade (I know because I bought helmets every few years and some I liked once were obsolete by the time of my later purchases) - I don't know if they think it'll still work or if it's just to shut up some relative who doesn't know about helmet lifespans. I don't ask because I tend not to initiate helmet debates with ordinary people (but I will with event organisers).

at the risk af being slighlty mischevious, if they don't do any good, it hardly matters whether you replace a dented one or not
Wouldn't you be getting most of the drawbacks with less potential benefit of impact protection? So we'd expect "invalid helmet wearers" to have even worse outcomes... but asking people to deliberately wear damaged helmets would probably be considered unethical, so I doubt there's much data on it!
With hindsight I would have had to have a full face guard to make any difference
This is true of my only head injury I remember OTTOMH - and that was a faceplant while walking!
I figure it will channel more air onto my sweaty brow and it looks more streamlined and aggressive rather than peanutty
Wrapping your head in what used to be cavity wall insulation (maybe it still is - I've not bought any for years) and expecting a few holes to vent and cool it is a :banghead: approach to overheating!
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
Well, follow me if you can, down the route of my logic.

Cycling is pretty low risk. You are already quite unlikely to come off from any cause.
Of the situations where you come off, you won't always hit your head (humans having evolved very good instincts to protect the head in a fall)
Of those, the subset of incidents where a helmet would turn a serious injury into a slight one, or turn a death into just a serious injury, is vanishingly remote. They will absolutely protect against a mild bump or some road rash, depending, but I don't really care about that.
Therefore, the tiny and very specific circumstances where a helmet will actually make a significant difference to my safety, are so remote that it's simply not worth the bother. I find cycling more enjoyable without a helmet.

It's also worth pointing out that there are plenty of activities that have a similar or even higher risk of head injury, that people never suggest wearing a helmet for, and people would look at you very strangely if you suggested such a thing. I think it's interesting that only cyclists are asked to wear a helmet for what is a pretty low risk activity. Why?

Finally, the evidence is pretty clear: helmets do not confer a statistically detectable reduction in head injuries. So either, as I suspect, the situations where they can help are so remote as to be lost in the "noise", or there is another factor such as risk (perception) compensation meaning helmeted riders suffer more head injuries than non-helmeted ones.
 
One of the problems is that in serious accidents it is usually multiple trauma that is the causes of the cyclist's problems

I remember scanning on who had been hit by a car that failed to stop at a junction. Fractured Femur, multiple internal injuries and a couple of upper limb fractures. He also had a broken nose and facial injuries

"Was he wearing a helmet?" is really rather irrlevant to the patient's health
 

swansonj

Guru
On the subject of the things people do and do not say during helmet discussions on cycle forums:

I note that quite a few people say "I used to wear a helmet, then i studied the evidence, and now i don't", but I'm not sure I've ever seen someone say "I used not to wear a helmet, then I looked at the evidence, and now I do".
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
On the subject of the things people do and do not say during helmet discussions on cycle forums:

I note that quite a few people say "I used to wear a helmet, then i studied the evidence, and now i don't", but I'm not sure I've ever seen someone say "I used not to wear a helmet, then I looked at the evidence, and now I do".

to be fair quite a few start.wearing one after they or someone they know bash their head. That's evidence of sorts, and more convincing at first sight than many dry and contradictory papers, often with and agenda.

that said I am in the first category - former wearer, now a sceptic
 
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