The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[snorri]

Perhaps we should be going easy on Stearman65, as a new member I doubt he has had time to read all the posts on this thread and doesn't realise he has entered the Bearpit.

 

[martint235]

Perhaps we should be going easy on Stearman65, as a new member I doubt he has had time to read all the posts on this thread and doesn't realise he has entered the Bearpit.

Bearpit? Bears are friendly compared to what goes on in here!! But ok.

Stearman.

 

[velovoice]

Perhaps we should be going easy on Stearman65, as a new member I doubt he has had time to read all the posts on this thread and doesn't realise he has entered the Bearpit.

Yep. When I saw his post, I felt a compelling urge to wrap my arms around him and croon "awww, it's okay, you don't know where you are... and that you need to swot up on all the facts before you post here". Ah well. He's got all weekend to read this thread.

Seriously though... Hi @stearman65! Welcome! We don't bite! But you may, just may, want to have a little browse around www.cyclehelmets.org so your next post is a bit more (sorry, there is no other word) 'well-informed'. You're in for a treat - so much to learn!

 

[Profpointy]

I think that is a negative argument. The older I get the less risks I take. Had a new heart valve last year, new knee scheduled for later this year, so having a helmet for use on my bike is cheaper & more cost effective than a burger a day until the next blocked artery.

The first question is, do helmets reduce risk ? From the Australian post compulsion statistics, rather counter-intuitively it appears they do not. We could speculate why, but the fact, however odd-seeming, remains.

Even if they do unequivocally reduce risk, there's still the follow up question is whether they are more justified than for other low-risk activities - I don't know, walking down stairs or whatever.

... but if they don't actually reduce risk on average, well....

The other odd thing, is that the pro-compulsion / pro-helmet lobby, feel it's justified to quote dishonest statistics to justify their position - specifically the Rivera Thomson Rivera thing which they must know is discredited. This strikes me as downright peculiar, "ends justify the means" or what ? A related behaviour is banning non-helmeted children from cycle training - when the evidence that training reduces risk is good (apparently) whilst the evidence that helmets help is thin or non-existant. It seems that it's worth sacrificing children's lives for the Great Cause - or at least it does display wierd thinking

 

[mjr]

The other odd thing, is that the pro-compulsion / pro-helmet lobby, feel it's justified to quote dishonest statistics to justify their position - specifically the Rivera Thomson Rivera thing which they must know is discredited. This strikes me as downright peculiar, "ends justify the means" or what ?

I saw someone citing it again recently. When challenged, they said they trusted the person who told them it and hadn't checked it!

So I suspect there may be a small group of zealots knowingly pushing that notorious Rivera Thomson Rivera statistic (the 85% one), but a larger group of too-trusting people who then spread it because it supports their "common sense" view. If people bother to check, they'd surely discover that it's so poor quality that US government agencies can no longer legally use it.

 

[stearman65]

It's OK, you want to try the plumbing forum for aggro, they wrote the book. Why get a helmet? Somewhere to mount my Gopro (if I had one). To validate my life insurance (if I had one.) To enable the Volvo driver behind to see a hazard ahead? (red helmet) Actually I'm favouring silver.
Just been for a first spin on the pavement outside our apartments, crossed two side roads, shirt sleeves, no hat, wind in my face & flies on my teeth, Great.
I remember the days when I didn't need a helmet on a motorbike, (see one of my other posts). I'm afraid the law will eventually make it compulsory, another nail in the freedom coffin.

 

[mjr]

Why get a helmet? Somewhere to mount my Gopro (if I had one).

The footage is much better on a bar mount. You move your head a suprising amount, if you're looking around at traffic.

To validate my life insurance (if I had one.)

Despite many claims that such policies exist, the only insurance I've seen require helmet use is a travel insurance policy which was poor in other ways, so I suspect the reason for a helmet requirement was trying to discourage cycling entirely because it's safer for their short-term view if travellers just sit on the beach. Insurance companies tend to be very blunt and analytical and there's no evidence helmets improve outcomes - which is what they care about, not only what happens if people crash.

To enable the Volvo driver behind to see a hazard ahead? (red helmet) Actually I'm favouring silver.

If they can't see a grown adult on a full-size bicycle with the required reflectors and lights, the hat you wear is unlikely to make enough of a difference.

 

[keithmac]

First off I've not got time to read 270 pages but interested in the gist.

Are you saying if for any number of reasons I fall off my bicycle and hit my head on the corner of a kerb a helmet would be of no benifit?.

Secondly I work at a motorcycle dealership and ride motorbikes daily, a mechanic at another shop who we know well had a nasty accident last week due to a woman in a Mini not looking properly before pulling out of a junction. He actually got run over by the car and his helmet had a tyre mark across it, I doubt he would be alive without the helmet.

Say you're riding your bike on a London Super Cycle lane and someone shoulder barges you while overtaking, you lose control and land on your head on the road/ path/ kerb. A helmet would give you no benifit there either?, personally I think it would.

 

[velovoice]

First off I've not got time to read 270 pages but interested in the gist.

Are you saying if for any number of reasons I fall off my bicycle and hit my head on the corner of a kerb a helmet would be of no benifit?.

Secondly I work at a motorcycle dealership and ride motorbikes daily, a mechanic at another shop who we know well had a nasty accident last week due to a woman in a Mini not looking properly before pulling out of a junction. He actually got run over by the car and his helmet had a tyre mark across it, I doubt he would be alive without the helmet.

Say you're riding your bike on a London Super Cycle lane and someone shoulder barges you while overtaking, you lose control and land on your head on the road/ path/ kerb. A helmet would give you no benifit there either?, personally I think it would.

Re: protection by bicycle helmet.
Materials engineers can tell you, no, no benefit.

Re: protection by motorcycle helmet.
Totally different beast.

Re: the length of this thread.
Full of science and facts. Attitudes have undergone 180 degrees of re-adjustment. Lives have been changed. You want to miss out on all that?

 

[mjr]

Are you saying if for any number of reasons I fall off my bicycle and hit my head on the corner of a kerb a helmet would be of no benifit?

Not exactly - you're assuming there that you're going to fall and hit your head on one of only two things that current cycle helmets are tested against, so of course if you're going to do that, it's worth wearing a helmet! Personally, I'm not going to do that on purpose and it's extremely improbable that I'm going to do it by accident (especially as many roads I ride don't have kerbs!), so it's not worth the drawbacks of helmet use to protect against that one near-impossible event.

I'm saying that wearing a helmet is of no benefit overall - but we don't know if that's because they are as likely to hurt you as help you, or if because helmet-users crash more for some reason, or something else. I realise this is counter-intuitive.

Secondly I work at a motorcycle dealership and ride motorbikes daily, a mechanic at another shop who we know well had a nasty accident last week due to a woman in a Mini not looking properly before pulling out of a junction. He actually got run over by the car and his helmet had a tyre mark across it, I doubt he would be alive without the helmet.

Motorcycle helmets are entirely different and much tougher. I'd say you should wear a motorcycle helmet while cycling if you like and are willing to put up with the drawbacks - it's probably more chance of helping you in a crash than a cycle helmet. Most cycle helmets are absolutely not rated for multi-vehicle crashes - the manufacturers say so in most user manuals.

Say you're riding your bike on a London Super Cycle lane and someone shoulder barges you while overtaking, you loose control and land on your head on the road/ path/ kerb. A helmet would give you no benifit there either?, personally I think it would.

Why do you think that? Not even most manufacturers will advocate helmets helping with that. Someone hitting you is a multi-vehicle crash and... most cycle helmets are absolutely not rated for that. Also, it would be more beneficial to develop your bike handling skills so that you are less likely to lose control even when barged and thereby avoid that crash.

I practise what I preach and have ridden several of the London CSes without a helmet, including the two new ones.

 

[keithmac]

Had a quick read, to be honest even in my ACU appoved AGV motorcycle helmet if I get run over by a lorry or heavy goods vehicle the chances are I'll be dead anyway..

If you're hit by a car doing 60 odd mph the chances aren't good either (internal damage, broken neck/ spine, basal scull fracture)

My riding is normally in 30mph single lane roads, with paths and street lighting etc. The type of accident accident I would be likely to have I FEEL would be less damaging wearing a helmet.

Comparing to tripping over while walking isn't comparing apples to apples, you don't walk around at 20mph?.

I don't judge other people who choose not to wear a helmet and would hope they would return the same courtesy..

 

[martint235]

So the question has to be what makes you feel it would help? Is it based on false evidence or just one of those irrational feelings? (I have socks with the days of the week on the sole, I can never wear the socks on the day eg ones marked Monday on a Monday)

 

[keithmac]

I would rather wear a helmet when headbutting a wall than not?. If I ended up crashing into a lamppost or tree I would rather have something rather than nothing between me and it?.

 

[martint235]

I would rather wear a helmet when headbutting a wall than not?. If I ended up crashing into a lamppost or tree I would rather have something rather than nothing between me and it?.

Oh dear it was looking promising for a while. I was all up for a logical/illogical debate but you've already regressed to the "if I bang my head on a wall" argument

 

[keithmac]

I slid on ice years ago (before wearing a helmet) and split my head open which I'm sure you'll agree isn't nice.

I slid on ice again a few years back and landed on my helmet, got up shook my self off and continued on to work none the worse.

So, accidents happen and it's a lot better not ending up in A+E if possible.