The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[GrumpyGregry]

I'd say the main reason cph is a cycle friendly city is simple. Safety in numbers. 40% of folk ride bikes. Bike riding is normal. Bike riding in normal clothes is normal. Bikes are everywhere, so the question tends to be "why wouldn't you ride a bike?" My taxi taking Brit colleagues get ridiculed several times a week.

EDIT: Cross-posted with @User (But I know what I think. I want to know what others think.)

 

[newfhouse]

Good point, well made.

Whereas for the 10's of thousands of cycle commuters in London, and the couple of hundred cross-country cycle commuters in Sussex, riding a bike to work is what? And for the middle-aged lady cycling to the shops in Horsham? Hobby or sport?

My perception is that most of the growth in bike use in the UK is sport rather than utility related. London commuting is different to Copenhagen, perhaps partly because average distances from suburb to centre are greater. There's a much higher proportion of middle aged men on sports bikes here. (I know, I'm one often one of them.) This probably contributes to the perception of cyclists as an 'out' group, as well as much of the aggressive cycling which discourages 'normal' people from riding. How we get to the point where most drivers are also cyclists, I don't know. Feeling that you have to dress up in team coloured body armour isn't going to help.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

How we get to the point where most drivers are also cyclists, I don't know. Feeling that you have to dress up in team coloured body armour isn't going to help.

True enough, in my experience. However, while many of cyclists we see in UK cities are involved in a hybrid sort of commutercise (exermute?) there are still far more cyclists around and that fact alone makes drivers more bike aware (and more antibike in some cases favoured by Daily Mail columnists).

 

[srw]

The simple answer is that, for most Danish cycle users, it's a sensible transport option rather than a sport or hobby and hence doesn't need anything more than a bike and a raincoat.

Why restrict it to the Danes?

My experience of London is that cycling is a sensible transport option with no need for anything other than a bike and a raincoat. (Actually these days a cape)

 

[srw]

I'd say the main reason cph is a cycle friendly city is simple. Safety in numbers. 40% of folk ride bikes. Bike riding is normal. Bike riding in normal clothes is normal. Bikes are everywhere, so the question tends to be "why wouldn't you ride a bike?" My taxi taking Brit colleagues get ridiculed several times a week.

EDIT: Cross-posted with @User (But I know what I think. I want to know what others think.)

*ahem*

In the UK, something like 40% of folk ride bikes. I forget the exact number, but I'm ball-park right.

I shall be interested to see what Seattle is like tomorrow, during the working week.

 

[newfhouse]

Why restrict it to the Danes?

Because the question I was answering was about the difference between Danish and UK cycling.

My experience of London is that cycling is a sensible transport option with no need for anything other than a bike and a raincoat. (Actually these days a cape)

I'd love to agree completely but it depends on the journey. If your ride is only a few miles, or from train station to workplace, or further but at a serene pace, then you're right. Back to the thread topic, how much more popular would already ridiculously cheap cycle hire be if more people were happy to ride un-helmeted? How would that transform cities?

In the UK, something like 40% of folk ride bikes.

But most of that 40% do so as a leisure activity, not as a daily transport choice. I wish I knew how to change that. To restate my point, scaring them into thinking they need armour to protect them from traffic isn't the right way.

 

[martint235]

Bikes vs Cars

If the above in bold is true surely that would mean a lot less automobiles on the roads of Copenhagen and if what I am led to believe is also correct Copenhagen is a very bike friendly city with roads designed to accommodate cyclists.

This bit keeps cropping up. Removing cars from roads makes cycling a much more pleasant activity. However it doesn't really matter in a helmet debate as cars are irrelevant . If you get smacked by a car at speed you can be wearing whatever you like on your head it's not going to play a part in the outcome

 

[ufkacbln]

The important point is that whether you wear one or not, when you wear it and which type you wear is a personal choice

If people wish to ignore that evidence, dismiss it as "anti-helmet" because they are uncomfortable with it, then of course they can.

However the ridiculous and untrue claims are challenged as they are often dangerous and misleading.

 

[screenman]

This bit keeps cropping up. Removing cars from roads makes cycling a much more pleasant activity. However it doesn't really matter in a helmet debate as cars are irrelevant . If you get smacked by a car at speed you can be wearing whatever you like on your head it's not going to play a part in the outcome

You cannot be 100% sure of that.

 

[ufkacbln]

Back to the thread topic, how much more popular would already ridiculously cheap cycle hire be if more people were happy to ride un-helmeted? How would that transform cities?

.

Generically -
Those systems which have been helmet free have worked, thise which have insisted on helmets failed....

 

[ufkacbln]

You cannot be 100% sure of that.

Therein lies another problem.

Take the "Helmet saved my life" post a few pages back.

The evangelists seem to forget the other multiple injuries and this is the case with most vehicle injuries.

The head injury gets quoted because it removes the blame for the injury to the cyclist, whereas what really compromises the patient's health is the massive internal injuries, fractures and the combination that causes debilitates or kills the victim.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

*ahem*

In the UK, something like 40% of folk ride bikes. I forget the exact number, but I'm ball-park right.

I shall be interested to see what Seattle is like tomorrow, during the working week.

Isn't the "ride bikes" stat own or have access to bikes, or ride them occasionally, or some such.

In Copenhagen and Fredericksberg (an enclave within the city that is a sererate municipality) 40% of all commuting journeys are done by bike, every day.

As to Seatle, enjoy! They tell me that each day more people commute by bike in Greater Copenhagen than do in the entire USA.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

You cannot be 100% sure of that.

In life you can rarely be 100% sure in matters of safety. You can assess the risk, weigh up the danger, and make a decision. You can be sure enough.

If hit by a car at travelling speed you will have multiple serious injuries and any head injuries will often be the least of your worries.

 

[martint235]

You cannot be 100% sure of that.

True. If you're wearing a full motorcycle helmet, it might help. And although I'm not 100% sure, I'm five 9s sure that a piece of polystyrene isn't going to help

 

[Mugshot]

Perhaps that wouldn't be a bad thing?

We've had over a dozen pages of discussion in the past couple of days and for the most part it's been interesting if robust with (i think) a couple of new faces too, of course there were numerous posts that have been deleted. If you don't like the discussion I would imagine you know where the door is, ....