Police, primary and politness

[lukesdad]

Not really a lot of help in a lot of accidents then are they ?

FPNs

 

[Vikeonabike]

CC's original post about cyclist being angry about Police Officers not understanding Primary is a good one. Before I started cycling I had no idea about it either. As my experience and interest has expanded, I have become more knowledgeable about the safety issues involved and obviously, cycling law.

How many forumites can put thier hand up and say "I knew about Primary before I started cycling on a regular basis!" Not many I can tell you. How many of us would agree that not wearing a helmet would make us any less vulnerable in the event of a crash. That would again start a heated debate. How many teachers of history could step in and teach chemistry or PE or French? Not expected too either are they? So why do a lot of people expect officers to know and of dealt with every offence in the land?

How you react to a police officer as with any other human being will and can decide how you are treated. Most of us can tell an angry and upset with the situation person from the Angry and aggressive I want my way type...

The former will be allowed time to calm down, the later will be dealt with in the most appropriate way. I have gone to a job, met a person who who alleged they were the victim and after 5 minutes of abuse aimed directly at the police (I don't take it personally) walked away. If they had calmed down they may have been listened to.


Dangerous Dogs act....I haven't a clue, first time I have come across it. I'll have to spend all weekend looking it up, deciphering it nd deciding if there is a case to answer or if there is a lesser offence (there is). Case I'm dealing with, I can guarantee neither the Victim or the Offender is going to be happy with the outcome! Guess whose fault that is then...Not mine but I'm going to take the flak for it.


Finally, despite the uniform police officers and PCSOs are human. They get angry and upset like you do, they make mistakes like you do, they may have a differeing oppinon to yours but 99% of them are doing thier job to the BEST of thier ability!

 

[Red Light]

So why do a lot of people expect officers to know and of dealt with every offence in the land?

I don't expect them to know everything but I do expect them to have a good working knowledge of the law as that is their job. But what I don't expect is for them to make it up when they don't know.

 

[apollo179]

What aren't? Coppers or FPN's?

Can I just point out, from the viewpoint of a 5 times commended Inspector who always tries to listen to reason, that Dave W's example was a crap one? He applied a threshold test (50/50) which should be applied to due care cases, to an offence absolute. He should have reported for summons in my opinion.

I'm sorry Dave W, but you didn't do yourself any favours there.

Helpful post.
To clarify - are you saying that the car door opening is an offence absolute ?
Forget about excuses (it was misty , the cyclist came 90 degrees out of nowhere) the blame surely always lies 100% with the car door opener. The duty of care rests with the car door opener to check it is safe surely.
I can see why the police / cps arnt inclined to get involved in it by and large it is just absent minded people in cars and usually dosnt do that much harm. But there are instances as have been cited where cyclists have been killed as a result of people opening car doors and it seems to me that a comprimising on the area of blame away from the door opener is wrong and can only send the wrong message.
for the police btw.

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

Interesting! I'd never heard of primary and secondary road positioning before I read this post, but that is how I ride anyway.

I think of it as "defensive" riding (assume the worst): if I see indications that a parked car might be about to move off (lights, exhaust fumes etc), I'll give it a wide berth; similarly when I'm approaching a blind bend in the road, I'll occupy the centre of the lane to prevent being overtaken.

Ordinarily I ride in, what I now know is, the secondary position to avoid the debris and ironworks in the gutter and so as not to run into the kerb, but also to ease safe overtaking (consideration runs both ways).

"Primary", "defensive" or just plain "common-sense"?

PS As for the Highway Code applying only to motorists: 1) I understood that it applied to all users of the er... highway; and 2) although it is only guidance (rather than the law) the courts will take whether it was being adhered to, into account in the event of a prosecution or compensation claim.

 

[Red Light]

I can see why the police / cps arnt inclined to get involved in it by and large it is just absent minded people in cars and usually dosnt do that much harm.

35 cyclists seriously injured a year by it in London alone, representing 8% of all serious injuries and the fourth most common cause behind left and right hooks and being hit by a vehicle alongside. I wouldn't call it trivial but perhaps left and right hooks are also just absent minded people in cars that usually don't do that much harm

 

[apollo179]

35 cyclists seriously injured a year by it in London alone, representing 8% of all serious injuries and the fourth most common cause behind left and right hooks and being hit by a vehicle alongside. I wouldn't call it trivial but perhaps left and right hooks are also just absent minded people in cars that usually don't do that much harm

You undermine your own credibility by selective quoting. You know full well i also said ;
"But there are instances as have been cited where cyclists have been killed as a result of people opening car doors and it seems to me that a comprimising on the area of blame away from the door opener is wrong and can only send the wrong message.
for the police btw."

It does seem like you are just out to attack anyone and anything rather than making sensible well reasoned observations.

 

[Vikeonabike]

I don't expect them to know everything but I do expect them to have a good working knowledge of the law as that is their job. But what I don't expect is for them to make it up when they don't know.

The vst majority do. Nearly all, like in my dangerous dogs case will admit when they don'tknow, however will come back with the answe from someone who does. A good officer, like any honest pesron and lets face it officers are supposed to be honest, will not make things up.

 

[Little yellow Brompton]

I'll return to the thread only to say that I agree it was a crap example. It wasn't meant to be held up to internet scrutiny, simply to illustrate that with some things you can't please everyone. No one here knows the full facts of the case, me and ultimately my supervision did and it was deemed a no go. That doesn't make it the right decision but that's the decision that was taken.

The biggest mistake was seemingly trying to contribute to yet another thread on CC where the membership seem hell bent on ripping apart everything you post.

It really does make for a poor experience and it's not just because I'm a copper posting here. This place really is one of the most unfriendly and aggressive forums I have frequented.

Never used Usenet then?

 

[Origamist]

Back to the OP - could I reiterate some of the points made by CC as I have had to explain these terms to police officers, colleagues, friends, family etc

The overwhelming majority of cyclists have no concept of the terms primary and secondary (even if they adopt similar road positions). If you're dealing with people who do not understand the terms, politely and clearly define them, but more importantly explain why you were in said position (IME people get too hung up on the nomenclature). Use examples to explain why you consider the position safer in certain dynamic traffic situations and by all means mention that this advice is enshrined in Cyclecraft which is recommended reading for the National Cycle Training Standard, but don't labour the point. Be prepared for people to disagree with you - don't be doctrinaire (point out some of the disadvantages of riding in primary, but counter them!). Some people can be persuaded, others will understand why you were riding the way you were, but still think it was a bad idea. In one case, I convinced a doubting friend to ride through pinch points with me in the centre of the lane and then again, close to the gutter, this practical demonstration worked far better than the theory...

 

[Angelfishsolo]

What aren't? Coppers or FPN's?

Can I just point out, from the viewpoint of a 5 times commended Inspector who always tries to listen to reason, that Dave W's example was a crap one? He applied a threshold test (50/50) which should be applied to due care cases, to an offence absolute. He should have reported for summons in my opinion.

I'm sorry Dave W, but you didn't do yourself any favours there.

To everyone else, whatever your standpoint on public servants, please don't tar everyone with the same brush. In our daily working lives we meet an enormous range of situations, from the hilariously funny, through the terrifying and downright harrowing, to the stomach churning stuff that leaves some of our colleagues mentally scarred for life. Many of us would love to be able to do what we see as our job without being hampered by a lack of resources, and, dare I say it, speciality legal training. However, over the last 24 years of policing I have seen huge changes in structures, support services, legislation, fundamental changes to the entire criminal justice process, and in all of this there has been a constant theme that the police aren't quite getting it right in the eyes of many people.

Some of our number are rude, lazy, incompetent, power-crazed, unpleasant. Some officers are ignorant of some legislation, but try to make up for this lack of knowledge by being bombastic or aggressive, (When challenged on the street a natural defence is to put up the communication barriers.)

I can assure you all that there are many of who will challenge those officers who do not give a quality service. I also speak from experience when I say that generally speaking the rude, aggressive, opinionated and apparently arrogant officers tend to be less experienced, and therefore lacking in confidence. I will also point out that they are the exception rather than the rule in my (albeit limited to the officers I have met over 24 years) experience.

I accept quite readily that we do not, on occasion, live up to expectation, neither do we always give the service that the majority of the public deserve. I choose those words carefully, because I also agree that there are a significant number of people with whom we come into contact on a daily basis who have no social conscience whatsoever. They delight in causing misery and unrest, they cheerfully help themselves to your goods and possessions without a single pang of conscience. They beat, stab, burgle, rob, rape, even kill, for their own purposes, and would not give a second thought to the welfare or wellbeing of the bleeding hearts who would so readily defend them against the injustices, real or imaginary, that the Criminal Justice System may mete out to them. However, and this again is sincerely meant, the vast majority of police officers will afford them every single ounce of professionalism, even courtesy in dealing with them.

Coppercyclist tried very hard to point out that you cannot assume that a cop will know all about your needs as a cyclist. I didn't want to criticise at first, because his post was genuinely intended, but giving a cyclist room is enshrined in the highway code. It's also common sense. Doorzone is also covered in Motorcycle Advanced Training copies of Roadcraft, or was when I read it.

The main thrust of his argument however is around knowledge, and subsequent communication. He makes a point that we cannot be expected to know every shred of legislation around a particular topic, as often a basic working knowledge can be sufficient. We have access to advice and further reference should we need it, and, here's the rub, are prepared to access that advice before jumping in with both feet and getting it wrong.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Can I make sweeping statements about Derricks please?

If you drop err they are dicks

 

[Angelfishsolo]

CC's original post about cyclist being angry about Police Officers not understanding Primary is a good one. Before I started cycling I had no idea about it either. As my experience and interest has expanded, I have become more knowledgeable about the safety issues involved and obviously, cycling law.

How many forumites can put thier hand up and say "I knew about Primary before I started cycling on a regular basis!" Not many I can tell you. How many of us would agree that not wearing a helmet would make us any less vulnerable in the event of a crash. That would again start a heated debate. How many teachers of history could step in and teach chemistry or PE or French? Not expected too either are they? So why do a lot of people expect officers to know and of dealt with every offence in the land?

How you react to a police officer as with any other human being will and can decide how you are treated. Most of us can tell an angry and upset with the situation person from the Angry and aggressive I want my way type...

The former will be allowed time to calm down, the later will be dealt with in the most appropriate way. I have gone to a job, met a person who who alleged they were the victim and after 5 minutes of abuse aimed directly at the police (I don't take it personally) walked away. If they had calmed down they may have been listened to.


Dangerous Dogs act....I haven't a clue, first time I have come across it. I'll have to spend all weekend looking it up, deciphering it nd deciding if there is a case to answer or if there is a lesser offence (there is). Case I'm dealing with, I can guarantee neither the Victim or the Offender is going to be happy with the outcome! Guess whose fault that is then...Not mine but I'm going to take the flak for it.


Finally, despite the uniform police officers and PCSOs are human. They get angry and upset like you do, they make mistakes like you do, they may have a differeing oppinon to yours but 99% of them are doing thier job to the BEST of thier ability!

 

[Adasta]

Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

However difficult it is for the police to know everything, if the enforcers of the law don't know what they're enforcing, what hope do we have?

 

[cjb]

Best thread I've read for a while, congratulations to the OP. I'm new to road cycling after many years off-roading and I hadn't heard about primary and secondary either. It will be a long while before I have the confidence to ride anywhere other than next to the curb though. I think if the government are serious about promoting cycling (to work) they should think about spending some money on educating the car driving public.