Drago
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Damn straight.
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Damn straight.
rustybolts
pedalling tediously
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If you see the footage from Anthony Davidson it shows exactly how Hamilton got understeer and drifted out into Perez. Perez kept his line precisely. The stewards were 100% correct. Hamilton is no angel , I bet Verstappen will remember for a very long time going off at Silverstone after clashing with Hamilton. Winners in F1 were always ruthless , its the nature of the game
rustybolts
pedalling tediously
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"Yuki Tsunoda - 9
An amazing Sunday performance from Tsunoda at Spa. He was aggressive and ran as high as seventh at one point. Inevitably, he dropped down the order as he lacked pace relative to Russell, Norris and the Alpine of Ocon. "Racing journalist's review of Tsunoda's performance today at Spa , 9 out of 10 . Ricciardo got 6 out of 10 . Food for thought for Ricciardo during the F1 break .
https://www.crash.net/s3/files/styles/large_article/s3/pa/3412064.0064.jpg?itok=CZpsoaYL
Drago
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Aye, Brilliant result for Tsunoda but he needs to keep it going - one world championship point or two doesn't negate that he's been out qualified three times and beaten twice by the new boy in a car he hadn't even driven three weeks ago.
And Perez was back mopping up the points left in Verstappen's wake. Three drivers performing well must be a headache when trying to decide who to favour, but it's probably a nice problem to have.
And Perez was back mopping up the points left in Verstappen's wake. Three drivers performing well must be a headache when trying to decide who to favour, but it's probably a nice problem to have.
Drago
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Hot off the presses...LeClerc has extended his Ferrari contract to the end of the 2026 season, with the option of a further extension 2029.
Am I the only one who thinks he's good, but not that good?
Also word is that now Perez has failed 125 points behind Verstappen he's trigger a poor performance clause in his contract and Red Bull get to cut his salary. Oops.
Am I the only one who thinks he's good, but not that good?
Also word is that now Perez has failed 125 points behind Verstappen he's trigger a poor performance clause in his contract and Red Bull get to cut his salary. Oops.
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D
Deleted member 26715
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Ferarri or Leclerc ?
Drago
Legendary Member
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- Suburban Poshshire
LeClerc, but equally applicable to Fezza I guess.
D
Deleted member 26715
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He's good, not sure he's the 2nd coming that some proclaimed him to be, not sure he has the mental capacity, but with Ferrari as they currently are he's not had a chance to shine, he's also not dominating Sainz which has got to be his first goal.
Drago
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You can bet that Massa's argument will be that yes, he agreed to be bound by the rules, but the FIA and F1 have knowingly acted outside of them in their hushing-up of the situation, so he himself should also not be bound by them when it comes to arbitration...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...lenge-over-lost-2008-f1-world-title/10508519/
After all, they can't expect someone to be bound by the rules that they themselves have ignored.
I eint think he'll "win", butnits going to play out in ways that people have not yet forseen and he way do well out of it.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/...lenge-over-lost-2008-f1-world-title/10508519/
After all, they can't expect someone to be bound by the rules that they themselves have ignored.
I eint think he'll "win", butnits going to play out in ways that people have not yet forseen and he way do well out of it.
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D
Deleted member 1258
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I don't think he's got a cat in hells chance of succeeding but its worth a try.
figbat
Slippery scientist
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It depends what you mean by “win”. I’m certain they won’t amend the championship result but he may well be successful in terms of financial restitution.
OP
OP
Reynard
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TBH he's got an ice cube in hell's chance here.
Let's face it, the race in question was on a street circuit where anything can happen and invariably does. Even if Briatore contrived to fix the result in Alonso's favour by asking Piquet Jr to bin his car at a specific point in the race, there's absolutely no guarantee that Massa would have finished any higher up the standings than he did. And of course, given that the incident in question only came to light a year after the fact, I think Filippe just has to take his hard cheese.
Besides, there's precedent in sport where there's been fixing proved to have taken place, that the persons involved have been punished for doing so, but that the results in matches and tournaments have stood. Snooker is the one that readily springs to mid, which has recently gone through a similar scandal, with some quite senior Chinese players (including winners of Triple Crown events) banned and fined.
On that basis, and given the fact that there are just simply too many variables into account, I don't think CAS can do anything.
Let's face it, the race in question was on a street circuit where anything can happen and invariably does. Even if Briatore contrived to fix the result in Alonso's favour by asking Piquet Jr to bin his car at a specific point in the race, there's absolutely no guarantee that Massa would have finished any higher up the standings than he did. And of course, given that the incident in question only came to light a year after the fact, I think Filippe just has to take his hard cheese.
Besides, there's precedent in sport where there's been fixing proved to have taken place, that the persons involved have been punished for doing so, but that the results in matches and tournaments have stood. Snooker is the one that readily springs to mid, which has recently gone through a similar scandal, with some quite senior Chinese players (including winners of Triple Crown events) banned and fined.
On that basis, and given the fact that there are just simply too many variables into account, I don't think CAS can do anything.
Drago
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The point is, it doesn't matter where anyone finished, or even if they didn't finish and were abdudted by aliens for sex experiments. Under the FIAs own rules the results should have been declared void.
Massa's argument is that had that results been voided ae the rules dictated, and the whole thing wiped from the face of sporting history as if it had never happened, he would have been champion at the end of the season. .
I don't think he's relying on CAS. Although he contractually agreed to let them be arbiter when he signed on as a competitor, his legal team are arguing that the FIA have not followed the rules so why should they subsequently compelled to do so? I think they'll try to take it to law, and if it looks even remotely likely to get near a court room the FIA will settle for big undisclosed dollar and Massa will go away to spend it on hair transplants and crack cocaine and forget all talk of the championship.
Massa's argument is that had that results been voided ae the rules dictated, and the whole thing wiped from the face of sporting history as if it had never happened, he would have been champion at the end of the season. .
I don't think he's relying on CAS. Although he contractually agreed to let them be arbiter when he signed on as a competitor, his legal team are arguing that the FIA have not followed the rules so why should they subsequently compelled to do so? I think they'll try to take it to law, and if it looks even remotely likely to get near a court room the FIA will settle for big undisclosed dollar and Massa will go away to spend it on hair transplants and crack cocaine and forget all talk of the championship.
OP
OP
Reynard
Guru
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- Cambridgeshire, UK
If you go back through the history of F1, the FIA (and FISA before it) have a history of making things up as they go along, applying (or not applying in some cases) the rules as they see fit. So even if you base it purely on that precedent, there's not much of a case to answer.
And seeings that there is a time limit for any appeals regarding the declaration of a result, and since the story behind the incident only came to light well after that, there's not a lot anyone can do.
And seeings that there is a time limit for any appeals regarding the declaration of a result, and since the story behind the incident only came to light well after that, there's not a lot anyone can do.
Drago
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I'm not basing it on anything. I'm an observer, not a participant.
And that's the point Massa's team are making about the time limit - the FIA can't pick and choose which rules to hide behind just to suit themselves - thats contractually unfair and as such not enforceable in most western jurisdictions. A contract and a binding code of conduct is binding on all parties at all times, not just years later to suit one party alone.
Also the information required to support a challenge was not in the public domain because the FIA and F1 themselves conspired to keepmkt that way. As well as manipulating the championship Massa's team are arguing they also manipulated the process for challenging the result.
At face value the legal argument is compelling, it stands entirely on its own merit with the need for historic precedent. Someone cheated, the FIA and F1 knew, and knowing failed to void the result as the rule required - that is cut and dried.
The ticklish bit will be finding some jurisdiction in which to progress any legal action. The sporting courts of arbitration don't look likely. I think the FIA and F1 will duck and dive in the hope that the sporting courts wash their hands of it, but mark my words - one whiff of any territorial law court taking even the slightest interest when approached will have the FIA driving a dumper truck of cash and a settlement contract with a gagging clause up Massa's driveway.
Even if unsuccessful, were any of this to be aired in any kind of court, be it a court of arbitration or a law court, the damage to the credibility of the FIA and F1 will be huge and irreparable. Just imagine Briatore on the witness stand - he'll be sticking nearly 2 decades of knives between every pair of motorsport shoulders he can see. I reckon the FIA/F1 will pay serious moolah to stop anyone getting on to a witness stand and I reckon Massa's legal team know it too and are licking their lips. Massa knows he is unlikely to win, but he doesn't need to win to achieve what is, I suspect, his real objective.
I'm sure he doesn't seriously expect the championship result to be overturned, he's just in it for the money (aren't we all?) The business about the championship is nothing more than his starting point for negotiations. The more he backs away from that the closer he comes to the cash, and they all know it. It'll be a merry dance for a while but that's where it'll end.
And that's the point Massa's team are making about the time limit - the FIA can't pick and choose which rules to hide behind just to suit themselves - thats contractually unfair and as such not enforceable in most western jurisdictions. A contract and a binding code of conduct is binding on all parties at all times, not just years later to suit one party alone.
Also the information required to support a challenge was not in the public domain because the FIA and F1 themselves conspired to keepmkt that way. As well as manipulating the championship Massa's team are arguing they also manipulated the process for challenging the result.
At face value the legal argument is compelling, it stands entirely on its own merit with the need for historic precedent. Someone cheated, the FIA and F1 knew, and knowing failed to void the result as the rule required - that is cut and dried.
The ticklish bit will be finding some jurisdiction in which to progress any legal action. The sporting courts of arbitration don't look likely. I think the FIA and F1 will duck and dive in the hope that the sporting courts wash their hands of it, but mark my words - one whiff of any territorial law court taking even the slightest interest when approached will have the FIA driving a dumper truck of cash and a settlement contract with a gagging clause up Massa's driveway.
Even if unsuccessful, were any of this to be aired in any kind of court, be it a court of arbitration or a law court, the damage to the credibility of the FIA and F1 will be huge and irreparable. Just imagine Briatore on the witness stand - he'll be sticking nearly 2 decades of knives between every pair of motorsport shoulders he can see. I reckon the FIA/F1 will pay serious moolah to stop anyone getting on to a witness stand and I reckon Massa's legal team know it too and are licking their lips. Massa knows he is unlikely to win, but he doesn't need to win to achieve what is, I suspect, his real objective.
I'm sure he doesn't seriously expect the championship result to be overturned, he's just in it for the money (aren't we all?) The business about the championship is nothing more than his starting point for negotiations. The more he backs away from that the closer he comes to the cash, and they all know it. It'll be a merry dance for a while but that's where it'll end.
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