Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
So you are saying that racing drivers deliberately break the rules?
I was under the impression they normally try to stay within the rules. And if they do, then what I said is correct.
Motorsports Thread
- Thread starter Reynard
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I was under the impression they normally try to stay within the rules. And if they do, then what I said is correct.
OP
OP
Reynard
Guru
- Location
- Cambridgeshire, UK
Yes. They *will* push the boundaries up to - and beyond. It's the nature of the beast.
I spent well over a decade in the sport - both on the engineering and media side. Umm, and some dating of racing drivers might have also happened in that time. Racing drivers are definitely not innocent little fairies.
Just chatting on messenger with an ex-driver friend of mine. He says it's all about not getting caught. I won't say what erm, interesting things he did to his car, (that you couldn't see without stripping things down), but everyone was at it. And this is club racing, not any of the larger national series.
figbat
Slippery scientist
- Location
- South Oxfordshire, UK
We have seen the blatant pushing beyond the 'rules' before - for example if a corner is not being penalised for track limits then drivers are acknowledging this and taking advantage themselves. Or they use the "three strikes" approach as an allocation rather than a threat, using them up and then staying clean.
I'm also still interested in knowing what the Ferrari deal was regarding their over-performing engine that was hushed up by the FIA.
I'm also still interested in knowing what the Ferrari deal was regarding their over-performing engine that was hushed up by the FIA.
D
Deleted member 26715
Guest
Like Alonso opening admitted last year on one of the starts he purposely went off track to rejoin later, gave the place back the place he had gained, but in doing so had so much momentum he immediately took back the place.
We're never going to see that & I hope they've not done the same again.
Illaveago
Guru
- Location
- Chippenham,Wiltshire.
It does seem very odd that the teams using the Mercedes engine aren't performing as well as the other teams ? They all can't have got their figures wrong in their simulations .
I found an item on the net which said that the Mercedes MGU-H engine was going to be banned , the engine which used electrical energy to spin up their turbo .
I found an item on the net which said that the Mercedes MGU-H engine was going to be banned , the engine which used electrical energy to spin up their turbo .
Illaveago
Guru
- Location
- Chippenham,Wiltshire.
Burning oil ?
D
Deleted member 1258
Guest
Check the fuel flow and whats in their super fuel.
- Location
- Somewhere wet & hilly in NW England.
In a sport that has a proliferation of rules both technical and behavioural and that encourages bleeding edge innovation; it is no wonder that both teams and drivers have such an inherent desire to push the boundaries as hard as they can.
It's the nature of the beast and I rather like it tbh - gloves off all the way and one of the reasons I like Horner.
It's the nature of the beast and I rather like it tbh - gloves off all the way and one of the reasons I like Horner.
OP
OP
Reynard
Guru
- Location
- Cambridgeshire, UK
Me too... We know they were running a higher fuel flow rate (that much is in the public domain), and so if they'd had the standard 100kg of fuel in the tank, they would have run out of fuel well before the end of the race. And we know that you have to have a certain volume left in the tank at the end for the mandatory sample. The Astons fell foul of that last year, losing them a podium.
F1 did go through a phase of using really trick fuels, additives, chilling the fuel to get more into the tank (back then, fuel was by volume not by weight at ambient temperature under current rules) and thus being able to run a much richer mixture, but then they pulled the plug on all that and specified pump fuels. Makes you wonder how "pump fuel" the pump fuel actually is...
And whether someone might have had a finger on the scales somewhere so they could put more into the tank to allow them to run that increased fuel rate.From F1's commercial standpoint, it makes sense to have Ferrari being competitive, as they have such a massive global following. As Sam Bird said on the R5 commentary, it's not a car brand, it's a religion. So all the marketing, merchandise, bums-on-seats at the circuits and such...
But apart from brief bursts of competitiveness, Ferrari are generally typically Italian - badly organized, full of infighting between drivers and between team personnel, bumbling, making stupid mistakes. The history of F1 is littered with the evidence. The cynic in me says they need that, erm, "helping hand" to stop them from reverting true-to-type.
I will admit I'm not a Ferrari fan and never really have been. My allegiances to teams and drivers have been reasonably peripatetic since the early 90s as interest has waxed and waned, although these days, I'm firmly a McLaren / Lando Norris kind of girl.
figbat
Slippery scientist
- Location
- South Oxfordshire, UK
My understanding of the "pump fuel" situation (which is a handful of years old so may have been superseded) was that the fuel had to meet the requirements of road pump fuel, but didn't actually have to be road pump fuel. The requirements of road fuel are limited to the aspects that are important to road users, so are prescriptive in certain ways but also have no limits in other ways that are irrelevant to road users. Hence you can formulate a fuel that is highly specialised but still qualifies under road fuel standards.
In fact, here is the relevant article of the technical regulations:
A clever chemist can find ways of complying yet being special.
In fact, here is the relevant article of the technical regulations:
A clever chemist can find ways of complying yet being special.
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figbat
Slippery scientist
- Location
- South Oxfordshire, UK
I specifically note this bit...
"...to cover the presence of low level impurities, the sum of components lying outside the 16.2 and 16.4.3 definitions are limited to 1% max m/m of the total fuel"
In fuel formulating circles, 1% is a lot. If I was tasked with these rules and saw that 1% allowance, I might be looking to make sure that the fuel was made as cleanly as possible, to reduce any unwanted impurities, and take advantage of that 1% allowance for alternative chemicals.
derrick
The Glue that binds us together.
- Location
- On the edge of London
Could the FIA supply the fuel, then they all get the same, or am i missing something.
OP
OP
Reynard
Guru
- Location
- Cambridgeshire, UK
Mmmmm, yes... Good point @figbat
On a 100kg fuel load, 1% is a kilo of "stuff" - so depending on the specific gravity of those chemicals, there is the potential for a fairly significant quantity of performance-enhancing additives to be mixed with the more pukka fuel.
The radio commentary at the weekend did mention that Ferrari have been "clever" with their fuel, so that might well be what they've done.
On a 100kg fuel load, 1% is a kilo of "stuff" - so depending on the specific gravity of those chemicals, there is the potential for a fairly significant quantity of performance-enhancing additives to be mixed with the more pukka fuel.
The radio commentary at the weekend did mention that Ferrari have been "clever" with their fuel, so that might well be what they've done.
OP
OP
Reynard
Guru
- Location
- Cambridgeshire, UK
That was the original remit when F1 moved away from trick fuels a fair few years ago now, but I don't know what the situation is now. You have the sponsorship issues to consider - Ferrari with Shell, McLaren with Gulf, Red Bull with ESSO, Alpine with whatever French supplier they have. Not sure about the other teams. So how would you regulate a control fuel?
Most series lower down the ladder do use control fuel, bought from the pumps at the circuit.
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
They all also used to have sponsorship from a variety of tyre manufacturers - Goodyear, Dunlop, Bridgestone, etc. Changing to a single standardised fuel supply would be no different in that respect to the change to only using Pirelli tyres with standard compounds.
