Lowest gear too hard!

[Scruffmonster]

After you.

No, I'm after your interpretation of 'Hill, slowly'. (Or of course, Hill, fast) I think you've missed the point.

I'll simplify it for you.

1. What speed would you expect to average on a truly flat 10 Mile TT course?
2. What speed would you expect to average on a 7% grade 10 Mile climb?

Follow up question.... Is number 2 slower than number 1?

 

[lulubel]

Yet here you are, sending a beginner who lacks fitness up a hill!

Absolutely. Great idea. I went from fat to fit by riding up hills. (I lived in Cornwall, so flat wasn't an option.)

As long as your gears are low enough, the great thing about hills when you're a beginner is that you get to enjoy whizzing down the other side, which is a nice reward for your efforts. Slogging along on the flat to try and gain fitness is just boring, miserable and endless.

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

No, I'm after your interpretation of 'Hill, slowly'. (Or of course, Hill, fast) I think you've missed the point.

I'll simplify it for you.

1. What speed would you expect to average on a truly flat 10 Mile TT course?
2. What speed would you expect to average on a 7% grade 10 Mile climb?

Follow up question.... Is number 2 slower than number 1?

If you're going to question the figures of my posts. Perhaps your own should be in order first, after-all it was your terminology I used.

You also suggested riding "slowly" to improve threshold

but said that the OP would be better served by doing that at lower speeds, on the very thing he's trying to improve on (hills), than higher speeds somewhere completely different. It's not tough to grasp that concept.

thresh·old (thrshld, -hld)
n.
1. A piece of wood or stone placed beneath a door; a doorsill.
2. An entrance or a doorway.
3. The place or point of beginning; the outset.
4. The point that must be exceeded to begin producing a given effect or result or to elicit a response: a low threshold of pain.

How exactly do you exceed it by working under it? How exactly does not exceeding it (therefore not applying stress) improve upon it?

So in your book, just how fast is slow? That riding hills slowly corresponds to challenging threshold?

 

[simmi]

he climbed well but was also on the lance program of artificial aids

Yeah its a shame, guess it makes it impossible to say how great he was to riders from different eras.

He was riding at a time which is now widely excepted that it was the norm and not the exception so I guess that still makes him a legendary climber.

How long back do you have to go before you can be sure riders were drug free?

 

[Scruffmonster]

If you're going to question the figures of my posts. Perhaps your own should be in order first, after-all it was your terminology I used.

No, what you did, whas misappropriate my overall point of;

- It's safer/easier to ride up hills at a slower speed than it is to ride flat roads at a faster speed, for various reasons.

To suggest that I advocated riding slowly to get fit.

I then redefined my point (which only you seemed to struggle with) to insert a broad example of how a lower speed on more difficult terrain, could replicate higher speed on flat terrain. This made it relatable to you. Or so I would have thought?

If you ask for clarification on something, that's ok. It actually marks you out as more intelligent than splitting up a post and addressing things line by line. Post 67 highlights this better than most. You've separated 2 related things and treated them as 2 different points, when they're not.

One of the worst feelings in life is that point in an argument where you realise that things are not quite as they appeared and you're too proud to kind of admit it so you just keep going.

If there's something you disagree with, fine, but sectionally picking holes in things isn't actually of any benefit to anyone.

So, my only question;

Is it possible to get more fitness gains by climbing a steep hill at a slow speed, than it is on the flat at a higher speed?

More than happy for you to create your own working example.

EDIT ::: The above posted before your lengthy follow up.

As I said, you're reaching for this concept of 'slowly'. Speed is an arbitrary number, which is why, when you failed to grasp the original concept, I inserted an example relating speed and terrain to effort.

 

[Scruffmonster]

You also suggested riding "slowly" to improve threshold



How exactly do you exceed it by working under it? How exactly does not exceeding it (therefore not applying stress) improve upon it?

So in your book, just how fast is slow? That riding hills slowly corresponds to challenging threshold?

I don't believe that I suggested riding slowly. Feel free to correct me.

I don't believe that I suggested riding under threshold. Feel free to correct me.

 

[DRHysted]

When I changed from the cheap Viking with a 32 tooth rear sproket to the Allez with 26 (I think), I found myself struggling on hills that had become easy. It took time to get used to the change in gearing, and repetitions of those hills to get the fitnes.
Riding all out on the flat takes utter commitment, reducing yourself to a weazing wreck with a heart rate over 170 on a hill is child's play. I would like to add that the weazing wreck now only happens on Blissford hill, but then I've only done it 4 times (failed once, succeeded 3).

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

I don't believe that I suggested riding slowly. Feel free to correct me.

Certainly.

Riding up a hill slowly can yield the same CV effort as riding fast on the flat

but it's exceptionally hard, and at times dangerous, to ride hard enough on the flat to maintain a decent level of effort

It's far better for someone to go up some hills. Speeds are lower, plus you can't cop out.

So Scruffmonster. If riding slowly up hills can yield the same effort as fast/flat riding, but fast flat riding is dangerous,it's better to go up some hills where speeds are lower? ie: slower that flat and slowly due to low threshold,an issue of fitness(important to note for beginners) not the gradient.

I don't believe that I suggested riding under threshold. Feel free to correct me.

In a roundabout way you did just this. You challenged that riding hard (threshold) on the flat is harder and more dangerous than riding slowly up a hill, without definition of the term "slowly" it can only be presumed that the climb is nowhere near threshold.

If the climber gets near threshold then you have a decent indicator that the climber simply isn't fit enough to sustain the output to climb it. But then you also state that on a hill you can't stop, which with a newbie working near threshold is pretty likely to happen. Either due to lactate or to have a puke in a hedge.

It's not so safe now is it?

 

[Scruffmonster]

Certainly.






So Scruffmonster. If riding slowly up hills can yield the same effort as fast/flat riding, but fast flat riding is dangerous,it's better to go up some hills where speeds are lower? ie: slower that flat and slowly due to low threshold,an issue of fitness(important to note for beginners) not the gradient.


In a roundabout way you did just this. You challenged that riding hard (threshold) on the flat is harder and more dangerous than riding slowly up a hill, without definition of the term "slowly" it can only be presumed that the climb is nowhere near threshold.

If the climber gets near threshold then you have a decent indicator that the climber simply isn't fit enough to sustain the output to climb it. But then you also state that on a hill you can't stop, which with a newbie working near threshold is pretty likely to happen. Either due to lactate or to have a puke in a hedge.

It's not so safe now is it?

10mph = slowly
30mph = fast

Effort is not linked to speed.
It's speed linked to terrain.

This is why I clarified with my example. You suggested there was obfusication. There wasn't. I merely said that slower speeds up a hill (suggested implication = the same effort that you were suggesting on the flat) (My original post you countered stated 'Riding hard uphill at 12mph') was a safer/more sensible way of getting fitter, over flying round roads at high speeds.

You keep bringing up 'Riding slowly' and 'Below threshold' as if these are things that I've said. In actual fact, you're merely quoting your own (deliberately) incorrect interpration of what I've said.

Anyway, OP, if you're still with us... Ride wherever you like, but push yourself, often. If you fancy crushing yourself on some flat, wet, traffic heavy roads at high speed for huge distances, go for it. Alternatively, find some hills and push yourself on those.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle is effectively saying the same as I am, but trying to be as contrary as possible. I don't know why, but you can judge for yourself as to what message resonates best.

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

10mph = slowly
30mph = fast
This is why I clarified with my example. You suggested there was obfusication. There wasn't. I merely said that slower speeds up a hill (suggested implication = the same effort that you were suggesting on the flat) (My original post you countered stated 'Riding hard uphill at 12mph') was a safer/more sensible way of getting fitter, over flying round roads at high speeds.

Except it isn't in reality. An unfit newbie will be much better off on terrain they are fit enough to handle, this is generally not a hill unless you live somewhere with zero flat bits. Your apparent fear of being near traffic quite possibly isn't shared by all.

You keep bringing up 'Riding slowly' and 'Below threshold' as if these are things that I've said. In actual fact, you're merely quoting your own (deliberately) incorrect interpration of what I've said.

I do?

Riding up a hill slowly can yield the same CV effort as riding fast on the flat.

It's far better for someone to go up some hills. Speeds are lower, plus you can't cop out. On the flat you can take it easy and ride at 80% but kid yourself that you're pushing. No option on a hill but to put a full effort in.

Oh so full effort, you must mean threshold?

So you recommend to a newbie struggling on hills to ride hills hard, above their capability? Glad we've got to the bottom of that. We'll entirely ignore hard efforts on the flat where you can easily stop because you don't like other people being on the road, ok?

Anyway, OP, if you're still with us... Ride wherever you like, but push yourself, often. If you fancy crushing yourself on some flat, wet, traffic heavy roads at high speed for huge distances, go for it. Alternatively, find some hills and push yourself on those.

People have been riding on flat roads for years with great success. Once again your hatred of traffic appears to be getting in the way of anything else you suggest.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle is effectively saying the same as I am, but trying to be as contrary as possible. I don't know why, but you can judge for yourself as to what message resonates best.

No I'm saying something entirely different.

 

[Scruffmonster]

No I'm saying something entirely different.

Do you even know what you're saying? Make a point why don't you?

You're splitting posts up again, don't do it. It's beyond dumb. A singular example above.

- My comment 'No option but to put a full effort in' - ie You HAVE to get to the top to continue.
- Your take on it 'Oh, so full effort, you must mean Threshold'

NO. These are not the same things. You seem to have a fundamental failing with the english language. It's full of nuance, which is why separating sentences that were designed to rely on the ones both before, and after, makes you look stupid.

Regarding traffic; I commute 21 miles from Kent to West London. Traffic is not a worry of mine.

In case your attention span remains short.

Make. A. Point.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

T.M.H.N.E.T & Scruffmonster - are you two bored or something?

Scruff' - I wouldn't rise to it if I were you.

 

[Scruffmonster]

T.M.H.N.E.T & Scruffmonster - are you two bored or something?

Scruff' - I wouldn't rise to it if I were you.

I'm the only one in the office and the thing I had to do relies on someone else doing a thing in Paris that they evidently didn't decide it was necessary to do today. So I'm planning my Tour trip.

So for all intents and purposes, yes, I'm partly bored.

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

Do you even know what you're saying? Make a point why don't you?

You're splitting posts up again, don't do it. It's beyond dumb. A singular example above.

It is what the quote function is designed to do. If you don't like it don't make statements that can be quoted.

- My comment 'No option but to put a full effort in' - ie You HAVE to get to the top to continue.
- Your take on it 'Oh, so full effort, you must mean Threshold'

You question my knowledge of the English language while yourself not managing to write what you meant. You agreed with my previous post on threshold, but disagreed as to where the ride should be. You didn't bother to place the idea of threshold into your grand scheme of climbing hills. I don't believe at this point you have attempted to, therefore what you write and how you write it is open to interpretation. If I can't clearly see what you mean, then no newbie will ever figure it out.

So place the idea of threshold, which you agreed with. Into the idea of a newbie climbing a hill. Are they working at it? above it? or below it? One definitive answer please.

NO. These are not the same things. You seem to have a fundamental failing with the english language. It's full of nuance, which is why separating sentences that were designed to reply on the ones both before, and after, makes you look stupid.

A product of the ability to quote,if it wasn't meant to be it wouldn't happen. I do believe that in the last thread we met you also questioned my understanding of the English language. I can tell you that since you are so concerned, English is my first language. I understand it pretty well after all these years speaking,reading and writing it.

Regarding traffic; I commute 21 miles from Kent to West London. Traffic is not a worry of mine.

Then why is it safer and less dangerous to climb hills instead of riding flat roads? Do I need to quote you again or would that break some Internet rule of yours that I'm not aware of?

In case your attention span remains short.

I've been attentive all day.

Make. A. Point.

I did pages ago. Here it is, remember?

Hills don't become hard because they point up. Hills become hard when you physically can't turn the pedals fast enough relative to your selected gear. The exact same thing happens on the flat so there is no reason at all to repeatedly climb hills. Why would you? (unless there was a cafe at the top!)

T.M.H.N.E.T & Scruffmonster - are you two bored or something?

Scruff' - I wouldn't rise to it if I were you.

Yes Scruff, stay in the gutter.

I am slightly bored yes.

 

[Gingerbloke]

Simple answer is to find a hill you are comfortable on and make sure your rides incorporate some hills, the more miles you do, the easier it will get. It's not really rocket science....!!!