Legal in the UK: throttle e-bikes

[bonzobanana]

Check out the situation in Ireland since last Monday, 20th May, if you think the same legislation is unworkable here.

I had a quick google and just seems the same as normal EU legislation for ebikes but they now have legislation for e-scooters. That same EU legislation for ebikes is clearly unworkable in the UK and Italy and likely in many other countries too. We have a exception allowed for throttle based ebikes if individually tested or DIY kits which I assume they don't have in Ireland. I've seen loads of videos on youtube with throttle based ebikes being used in Ireland and as the ebike law hasn't changed I can't see how it would be any different. I don't know what ebike legislation Ireland had before the EU ebike legislation but obviously the UK did allow twist and go throttle based ebikes and they are still legal to use today too. Also again there is nothing wrong with any ebike at all having a throttle even prebuilt ebikes today as long as they only assist to about 6km/h as twist and go or they only operate when being peddled or a combination of the two. It's the same situation in Ireland that they have to check whether the throttle is twist and go or operates as a pedelec. It's the same nonsense legislation that is very difficult to enforce. Surely the Irish police have better things to do than this and aren't actively making life difficult for those who disabilities and other medical issues that wish to use ebikes.

 

[classic33]

I had a quick google and just seems the same as normal EU legislation for ebikes but they now have legislation for e-scooters. That same EU legislation for ebikes is clearly unworkable in the UK and Italy and likely in many other countries too. We have a exception allowed for throttle based ebikes if individually tested or DIY kits which I assume they don't have in Ireland. I've seen loads of videos on youtube with throttle based ebikes being used in Ireland and as the ebike law hasn't changed I can't see how it would be any different. I don't know what ebike legislation Ireland had before the EU ebike legislation but obviously the UK did allow twist and go throttle based ebikes and they are still legal to use today too. Also again there is nothing wrong with any ebike at all having a throttle even prebuilt ebikes today as long as they only assist to about 6km/h as twist and go or they only operate when being peddled or a combination of the two. It's the same situation in Ireland that they have to check whether the throttle is twist and go or operates as a pedelec. It's the same nonsense legislation that is very difficult to enforce. Surely the Irish police have better things to do than this and aren't actively making life difficult for those who disabilities and other medical issues that wish to use ebikes.

Not quite the same since the 20th of this month, big changes with regards e-bikes in Ireland.

Change in law on e-scooters and e-assist/e-bikes in Ireland, from the 20th May.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release...ters-and-e-bikes-come-into-force-next-monday/

And if you get your cycle through the MSVA(UK), you're issued with a VIN plate to be placed on your vehicle.

 

[CXRAndy]

Interesting that the legislation mentioned upto 1kWatt power rating but still 25kph. I can see that being adopted as standard power rating for general Ebikes.

Upto 4kW for speed pedelecs upto 45kph.

Going in the right direction.

But folk won't pay for annual registration.

 

[classic33]

Interesting that the legislation mentioned upto 1kWatt power rating but still 25kph. I can see that being adopted as standard power rating for general Ebikes.

Upto 4kW for speed pedelecs upto 45kph.

Going in the right direction.

But folk won't pay for annual registration.

Then they'll continue to lose them.

There's also the compulsory motorcycle helmet to be worn whilst using either of those that fall outside EPAC regulations.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Back in the day I used to know a lad who drove around on a motorbike with no insurance (or tax or licence I think ... I didn't know him that well). He got away with it but (being a general pessimist) I used to worry on his behalf about the insurance implications.

Here comes the dumb question. I've never really thought about this... How much risk are the riders of non-legal scooters taking?

What would happen if you were in a prang (in the UK or Ireland) on a non legal scooter. Let's say it was demonstrably your fault and you put a crease down the side of a car, requiring bodywork of a few hundred quid? Let's also say that you don't just skedaddle and disappear leaving the driver with no-one to claim against.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Back in the day I used to know a lad who drove around on a motorbike with no insurance (or tax or licence I think ... I didn't know him that well). He got away with it but (being a general pessimist) I used to worry on his behalf about the insurance implications.

Here comes the dumb question. I've never really thought about this... How much risk are the riders of non-legal scooters taking?

What would happen if you were in a prang (in the UK or Ireland) on a non legal scooter. Let's say it was demonstrably your fault and you put a crease down the side of a car, requiring bodywork of a few hundred quid? Let's also say that you don't just skedaddle and disappear leaving the driver with no-one to claim against.

and, of course, if you do just skedaddle and leave the driver to sort it out himself then he might go to his insurance
and that is the sort of thing that puts all our insurance up.

 

[Drago]

The insurers are liable to then come after the rider personally (assuming they're an adult) to get their money back.

And theyll inform the dibble, so the rider will get knocked off for otherwise in accordance with a licence, no MOT, no insurance. The latter is a real kicker as its also considered a dishonesty offence and shows up on enhanced DBS checks, so the implications for employment and the like well into the future can be serious.

If the rider does a runner then the other party can claim off the MIB if their own insurance doesn't cover it. The MIB cover losses from illegal e scooter and illegal spec ebikes as well, as much as it causes them great pain to do so.

 

[Dogtrousers]

The insurers are liable to then come after the rider personally (assuming they're an adult) to get their money back.

And theyll inform the dibble, so the rider will get knocked off for otherwise in accordance with a licence, no MOT, no insurance. The latter is a real kicker as its also considered a dishonesty offence and shows up on enhanced DBS checks, so the implications for employment and the like well into the future can be serious.

If the rider does a runner then the other party can claim off the MIB if their own insurance doesn't cover it. The MIB cover losses from illegal e scooter and illegal spec ebikes as well, as much as it causes them great pain to do so.

So all in all it's a lot more risky than I ever really put my mind to. It's significantly more than just "oh, if I get caught they might give me a telling off and might take it off me". I could end up seriously out of pocket and in court.

Not that I'm planning on getting one, but it's interesting to know.

 

[Rusty Nails]

There's a bike tonight on our local Gumtree...a converted GT mtb openly stating that it has a powerful 960Wh/ 48V motor that can do 45mph.

The laws are being openly flaunted and the limits are going to be pushed further and further with increasing danger to inexperienced riders and pedestrians.

And the media still lumps us all together as cyclists.

 

[CXRAndy]

There's a bike tonight on our local Gumtree...a converted GT mtb openly stating that it has a powerful 960Wh/ 48V motor that can do 45mph.

The laws are being openly flaunted and the limits are going to be pushed further and further with increasing danger to inexperienced riders and pedestrians.

And the media still lumps us all together as cyclists.

I think the advertiser is confusing the battery rating with motor power

No way can it do 45 mph. Maybe 35mph flat out depending on the motor power rating

The battery has actually little bearing on speed, it's the wattage of the motor which is important.

A 750-1.5kW motor will get a rider and bike upto 30mph pedalling very very fast.(Ignoring thumb throttle)

 

[Rusty Nails]

I think the advertiser is confusing the battery rating with motor power

No way can it do 45 mph. Maybe 35mph flat out depending on the motor power rating

The battery has actually little bearing on speed, it's the wattage of the motor which is important.

A 750-1.5kW motor will get a rider and bike upto 30mph pedalling very very fast.(Ignoring thumb throttle)

I bow to your technical expertise

 

[bonzobanana]

Not quite the same since the 20th of this month, big changes with regards e-bikes in Ireland.

And if you get your cycle through the MSVA(UK), you're issued with a VIN plate to be placed on your vehicle.

Following that link it seems the same to me for ebikes and where the cut off point is where e-mopeds kick in. Just seems like the standard definition of ebikes in the EU for the 250W rating but again current ebikes sold in Ireland like Bosch based mid-drive ebikes can be using up to about 900W at peak and sustaining well over 700W going up hills even when they are thermally throttled a bit yet are classed as 250W when any simple electrical test shows they are beyond 3x that rating. Such ebikes as far as I know are not being re-classified as e-mopeds.

 

[classic33]

Following that link it seems the same to me for ebikes and where the cut off point is where e-mopeds kick in. Just seems like the standard definition of ebikes in the EU for the 250W rating but again current ebikes sold in Ireland like Bosch based mid-drive ebikes can be using up to about 900W at peak and sustaining well over 700W going up hills even when they are thermally throttled a bit yet are classed as 250W when any simple electrical test shows they are beyond 3x that rating. Such ebikes as far as I know are not being re-classified as e-mopeds.

Fails a roadside test, and the Guards have the capability to do that test roadside, and you lose the bike.

And that is the current situation in Ireland, not England.

 

[bonzobanana]

Fails a roadside test, and the Guards have the capability to do that test roadside, and you lose the bike.

And that is the current situation in Ireland, not England.

We shall see what happens but I suspect not much will change in reality in Ireland but we shall see. Here in the UK for example if the police are checking for throttles and find one they have to check;

1) Whether the ebike was sold before 2016
2) Is the ebike a bike fitted with a ebike kit
3) Is the ebike type approved with a certificate
4) Does the throttle only operate up to 6km/h as twist and go
5) Does the throttle operate up to 15.5mph only when the cycle is being peddled.

It's a lot of stuff to remember especially when they have so much else to remember I'm sure. It's just too complicated and throttles should never have been legislated against anyway it is anti-consumer and anti those who are disabled, recovering from injury and elderly etc which is why UK legislators came up with the type approval process which isn't actually type approval but individually tested ebikes with throttles.

 

[Drago]

It's not difficult to remember. They look for the compliance plate/decal that all legal bikes must have before a UK retailer can sell them, and compare it to the laminated card with which theyve been issued. If it doesn't have the plate/decal, or it has a different one, it's not legal regardless of any other consideration. That is quite simple, and if the rider wishes to contest it its up to them to demonstrate its legality to the beak, and without said plate/decal that's nigh on impossible. It may only do 15.5 before cutting out, and may only provided pedal assistance, but without that decal it was never a legal EPAC.

Of course, a bike could be a legal machine with the necessary plate or decal and then have been modified and the average bobby isn't likely to spot it unless they're into cycling themselves.

Qualified vehicle examiners, of which there are few (I was one, had just done the course when I got thrown out of RPU ) will have greater knowledge and know whether or nor a throttle and its function is appropriate to the age of the machine, etc, whether or not there's a naughty dongle, that sort of thing. Outside of the smoke you're unlikely to encounter one by chance, most farces only have 2 ot 3.