Just how bad are drivers, in general?

[Slick]

Most London drivers realise that it's simply impractical to knock cyclists off. They simply don't need the aggravation of facing the consequences of doing so. Some of them cycle too, having realised that taking solo trips by car takes longer than riding a bike and that cycling is more fun.

I realised that pretty quickly.

I must admit, I enjoyed my couple of days cycling around London.

 

[almostvegancyclist]

That's the one I was thinking of, I didn't quite recall it correctly:

"Cars are often killing people because bikes are forcing them over the middle of the road and causing problems"

There was also a piece of research done in regard to cycle lanes in London. The residents who were interviewed acknowledged that heavy car traffic caused noise and air pollution. But then they blamed this on cycle lanes, saying that traffic has increased due to cycle lanes. The us and them mindset is making people say rather strange things.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

There are rubbish drivers and there are rubbish cyclists. I would imagine that is because drivers do not choose to go on and get further training after they pass their test and cyclists get no training at all and think what they are doing is right and so they can never be wrong.

We just have to muddle along together. But there is no point apportioning blame. It does nobody any good.

This sounds like a comment I'd expect to read on an article in the Telegraph.

The number of cyclists, pedestrians and motorcyclists killed in 2023 is larger than the number of vehicle occupants killed - which when private cars account for most trips and most miles travelled, just shows how over-represented vulnerable road users are in the KSI statistics.

This thread is not about apportioning blame, it's about trying to establish facts around road safety and sadly, negligence on the part of drivers counts for the majority of cycling incidents in which someone is killed or seriously injured when you remove under 18s from the equation.

 

[Brandane]

middle/fast lane hogging

I quite liked your post - until I got to this bit. Any driver who refers to the right hand lane as the "fast lane" should instantly have their licence revoked and their vehicle confiscated and crushed.

 

[steveindenmark]

This sounds like a comment I'd expect to read on an article in the Telegraph.

The number of cyclists, pedestrians and motorcyclists killed in 2023 is larger than the number of vehicle occupants killed - which when private cars account for most trips and most miles travelled, just shows how over-represented vulnerable road users are in the KSI statistics.

This thread is not about apportioning blame, it's about trying to establish facts around road safety and sadly, negligence on the part of drivers counts for the majority of cycling incidents in which someone is killed or seriously injured when you remove under 18s from the equation.

I do not know where you get your figures from. Here are the Gov UK figures.

 

[Bristolian]

What's wrong with demanding higher standards of driving?
I'd have happily retaken my driving tests after 20 years or so. But no, I've been driving 36 years already, and can do another 16 years before my current licence expires; and even then there's not really any hoops to jump through to renew my licence - I find that ridiculous.
Resting is an opportunity to check:
a) eyesight
b) reaction time
c) hazard perception
d) knowledge of the HC
e) driving ability
And since anyone being retested is by definition an experienced driver, I'd make the retests harder than the normal test.

The people being retested of course. Would you expect your periodic motor insurance renewal to be free? or your MoT, or your drivers licence? Or your passport?
Retests would also include a retinal scan for uniqueness; no more paying someone to take a test for you.


And there's the issue - insufficient capacity in the system. But charge people for retesting, and increase enforcement (particularly automated enforcement) and plough the money into adding capacity to a system that desperately needs more capacity.
Ramp up retesting gradually - I'd probably start with those who are caught flouting certain road traffic act offences, then consider age groupings.

Poor driving at any age should be addressed, no argument there.



Speed and inattention are my biggest concerns on the road. Flood the roads with AI cameras that detect: the driver's face, instantaneous and average speed, tailgating, middle/fast lane hogging, red-light jumping, etc. Increase visibility of traffic police (another thing that could only be increased slowly).

Make it self-financing.

Also consider limitations on power, number of passengers that can be carried, permitted insurance groups, and even hours of day when driving is permitted. Have a sliding scale of what/when/how people can drive, not just focus on age.

There you go, lots of ways to manage various risks as presented by all ages of drivers.
God that was long-winded.

You misunderstand my POV and I am an active advocate for improving driving standards. Actually, I have no objection to re-testing per se just mandatory re-testing. If we taught learners to drive rather than pass the test standards would improve immediately and maybe this whole conversation would become mute. Personally, as a member of both IAMRoadsmart and RoSPA, I retake advanced tests both in the car and on motorbike every 3 years (RoSPA Gold) and 5 years (IAM Masters). Being forced to undertake a DVSA test every year would be a bit of a slap in the face TBH but of course I would have no choice, but one of the advanced organisations might have to lose my direct support.

Annual re-tests for everyone would be too onerous but here's a thought; all newly qualified drivers should have to pass an advanced driving course within 3 years of passing the L-test and then be re-tested to advanced standards every 5 years? The advanced courses could be delivered by suitable trained ADI's (many ADI's are already IAM/RoSPA members), the two organisations mentioned above or others who have shown DVSA they have the skills needed. Drivers who take on board the skills and techniques taught during advanced courses tend to retain and use them for longer than basic L-tested drivers.

I'm a firm believer in graduated licenses. We've had them in motorcycling for decades and it works well, keeping both riders and other road users safer. Another license change that is needed is the provisional should be limited to two years - pass your test in those 2 years or be forced off the road for the following year. Have you noticed how many food delivery riders are running on L-plates? If they don't plan to be tested then they have no incentive to improve their (generally) woeful skills and knowledge.

lazybloke, I don't think our desires are so far apart

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

I do not know where you get your figures from. Here are the Gov UK figures.
View attachment 741920

Sorry car occupants.

740 car occupants killed.
797 pedestrians, motorcyclists and pedal cyclists killed.

In fact, if you add up the vulnerable modes and compare that to the non-vulnerable modes, the deaths of vulnerable road users still add up to nearly half of all road deaths.

But your splitting hairs. Classic whataboutery.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

I do not know where you get your figures from. Here are the Gov UK figures.
View attachment 741920

Interesting to note that the fall in cyclist deaths between 2013 and 2023 corresponds with an increase in UK car numbers increasing by around 3 million (c10%). Figures based on a quick Google.

Are drivers treating cyclists with more of a sense of awareness? Is it due to infrastructure changes? Or is it due to the fact that the sample size of 83 cyclist deaths are such a low number in absolute numerical terms and hence are easily skewed? Or some other reason?

Taken at face value it seems that the data suggests that despite car numbers increasing the number of cyclist deaths are falling.

 

[Drago]

Wasn't it in the news recently that the number of cyclists is again falling?

 

[Andy in Germany]

I see things like that a lot round here. People fiddling with satnav, people too deep in conversation to notice other traffic around them, people cutting corners. people being obnoxious and shouting at you even when you never did anything wrong but they still saw you as "getting in their way". Pretty much the same as you experienced with one difference. Being on a popular cycle route it is often cyclists doing all that. On a weekend when the weather is nice it is actually dangerous crossing the road at times.

That could be supporting the OP's point; most of the people you encounter are normally driving so they could simply be repeating their habitual bad driving when on a bicycle.

I've noticed similar here. There are cycle routes I'll avoid near Stuttgart in on summer weekends because I know how busy and dangerous they get, but the people behaving badly only ride a couple of times a year; what I'm seeing is drivers riding bicycles as badly as they normally drive. It's also noticeable that even on these weekends, if I'm beyond a certain distance by about 10am then I have no problem with other cyclists.

 

[sheddy]

Drivers soon learn that you can break the law without any repercussions

 

[keithmac]

I've cycled to work most of my working life and it does seem over the past few years standards of driving have fallen off a cliff.

I do ponder when my time will come for an "off" due to a close pass..

Some journeys 90% of cars will give me more than enough room then the 10% spoil it for the rest.

It gets to the point at nearly 50 when you do question commuting by bike at all, which is a real shame.

 

[matticus]

We just have to muddle along together. But there is no point apportioning blame. It does nobody any good.

Yeah.

Think of all the useful things we could do with those beautiful court buildings!
And the police could get on with useful charity work instead of wasting time blaming people for "crime"!!

 

[oldfatfool]

Imo the gutter press have instilled into motorists that they have absolute right on their side to do whatever they see fit to avoid being held up by cyclists, and indeed that cyclists are third class citizens that have no rights whatsoever on a carriageway.

 

[Badger_Boom]

Wasn't it in the news recently that the number of cyclists is again falling?

I took that to be a factoid based on things like bike sales going off a cliff after covid.