Just how bad are drivers, in general?

[presta]

I recently saw a woman say that the reason that 99% of pedestrian deaths are caused by cars is that the pedestrians are jumping into the road to avoid cyclists.

There are some quotes from the general public in this video RE: cyclists being responsible for accidents

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_4GZnGl55c&t=139s&pp=ygUTZ2NuIG1vdG9ub3JtYXRpdml0eQ%3D%3D

That's the one I was thinking of, I didn't quite recall it correctly:

"Cars are often killing people because bikes are forcing them over the middle of the road and causing problems"

 

[Slick]

People are constantly being told, from some very vocal quarters, that cyclists are dangerous. We've been 'othered' by the main stream media since the 1930s - no doubt due to speculation on growth in the oil and automotive industries.

Aside from sharing the truth, I am not sure how else you tackle the mainstream media's distortion of reality and the opinions batted around Internet echo chambers based on false information.

There are some quotes from the general public in this video RE: cyclists being responsible for accidents

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_4GZnGl55c&t=139s&pp=ygUTZ2NuIG1vdG9ub3JtYXRpdml0eQ%3D%3D

That was actually quite interesting, I don't think I would have believed the level of ignorance if I didn't hear it myself.

It will take years to make any meaningful changes though and it certainly won't be in my lifetime, unfortunately.

 

[Time Waster]

People are constantly being told, from some very vocal quarters, that cyclists are dangerous. We've been 'othered' by the main stream media since the 1930s - no doubt due to speculation on growth in the oil and automotive industries.

I think we also other ourself. The idea that we are cyclists is kind of wrong imho. Most of us will be other things too which do not play well with cysling such as driving and walking as pedestrians. It is too easy to see things from the POV of who we are representing at the time we are posting. Is it even possible to think like a cyclist, motorist and pedestrian at the same time?

 

[Gillstay]

I think we also other ourself. The idea that we are cyclists is kind of wrong imho. Most of us will be other things too which do not play well with cysling such as driving and walking as pedestrians. It is too easy to see things from the POV of who we are representing at the time we are posting. Is it even possible to think like a cyclist, motorist and pedestrian at the same time?

You would have to if you were in Holland or Belgium etc.

 

[cyberknight]

That's the one I was thinking of, I didn't quite recall it correctly:

"Cars are often killing people because bikes are forcing them over the middle of the road and causing problems"

i think we all must have seen the same bit of footage and all remember different bits

 

[Drago]

Make all offences a banning matter and they'd soon behave.

28 days ban for minor speeding up to lifetime bans for mobile phone, drink/drug driving, 12 point totting up, and life prison sentences for "death by."

Abolish this "hardship" bollards in coirt for road criminals.

The effect will be two-pronged - the roads will become safer as people suddenly buck their ideas up and the worst offenders are banned.

As a society road criminals get away with murder, often literally. No other class of criminal gets treated with such countenance and leniency, and that's despite this class of criminal being responsible for more death and life changing injury than any other.

I know, preaching to the choir.

 

[Bristolian]

I think under the age of 60 people should have to resit their driving test every 5 years and over 60 every single year. There's some really bad elderly drivers near me and I've seen loads of people on their phones or reading/eating and drinking etc whilst driving.
Worst is when you sit upstairs on a bus and can see all this all the time.
People just do not care about anybody but themselves generally. It is what it is and you plan accordingly.

I'm getting fed up with the demands for re-testing as no-one appears to have thought it through or, at least, don't explain their ideas. Who's going to pay for all this re-testing? How many additional examiners will need to be employed to cover the tests, or do we just delay L-tests even more to accommodate them? Under the current system I would have to book my next year's test immediately after I take this year's - I'm almost 70. There is, however, an argument for the over-70's to have a proper medical and eye test before renewing their license every three years. This is common in the EU.

In the sentence I have highlighted above, are you suggesting the people on their phones and eating/drinking are all older drivers? These are the things that older drivers tend not to do - they've been indoctrinated it's dangerous for decades - but the young definitely do as they have an inflated idea of their skills and capabilities. There are some really bad elderly drivers about but there are several magnitudes more young ones and they are the drivers that show a complete disregard for others - wildly generalising here in response to yours.

I disagree that we can't do anything about the standard of driver behaviour (irrespective of age) but until government allocate sufficient funds to get more roads policing back on the streets we will have to plan accordingly, as you say. The new safety cameras will help but there will never be enough of them to be effective at anything except increasing the treasury coffers.

 

[slowmotion]

The vast majority of drivers in London are pretty good around cyclists. A fair number of cyclists who should know better are utter crap.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

I'm getting fed up with the demands for re-testing as no-one appears to have thought it through or, at least, don't explain their ideas. Who's going to pay for all this re-testing? How many additional examiners will need to be employed to cover the tests, or do we just delay L-tests even more to accommodate them? Under the current system I would have to book my next year's test immediately after I take this year's - I'm almost 70. There is, however, an argument for the over-70's to have a proper medical and eye test before renewing their license every three years. This is common in the EU.

Half the reason I suggested a theory test. Given the carnage caused by people piloting heavy machinery in public places, it's a justified measure if it is effective. And if it is effective, drivers would probably see a drop in their premiums sufficient to cover the cost of it.

And of course, drivers who want to retain their licenses should pay. Driving is already heavily subsidised by taxpayers in general, to the tune of £10bn a year, before accounting for externalities.

I think we also other ourself. The idea that we are cyclists is kind of wrong imho. Most of us will be other things too which do not play well with cysling such as driving and walking as pedestrians. It is too easy to see things from the POV of who we are representing at the time we are posting. Is it even possible to think like a cyclist, motorist and pedestrian at the same time?

I am a cyclist. I am proud of that, to a degree. When I cycle for transport, I am part of the solution and not part of the problem. I'm less likely to be an NHS burden. I go out of my way to travel in the least impactful way I can. As a nation, I think we should be proud of people who do cycle, rather than maligning them at every given opportunity.

And that translates through to when I'm walking (50 miles a week) in that I don't get distracted by my phone and wonder out across cycle paths or into moving motorised traffic and when I'm driving in that I never speed and I'm always mindful that I don't know what is around the next corner.

In fact, drivers who cycle regularly are 50% less likely to make an insurance claim in any given year - which I thinks speaks to the fact that cyclists make better drivers and are thus distinct from motorists who do not cycle.

The vast majority of drivers in London are pretty good around cyclists. A fair number of cyclists who should know better are utter crap.

And the evidence shows a higher proportion of trips made bicycle in an given area reduces casaulties for all modes of transport.

 

[Slick]

The vast majority of drivers in London are pretty good around cyclists. A fair number of cyclists who should know better are utter crap.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

Most drivers in Glasgow give me the feeling that they would sooner drive over me than wait 5 seconds but I noticed on a recent trip to London that drivers seemed well used with lots of different cyclists around them and not all behaving as expected.

 

[Bristolian]

In fact, drivers who cycle regularly are 50% less likely to make an insurance claim in any given year - which I thinks speaks to the fact that cyclists make better drivers and are thus distinct from motorists who do not cycle.

Back in 1970, when I was learning to ride a motorbike, it was generally said that bikers made better drivers. I doubt that is true these days, judging by the atrocious level or riding skill and lack of respect for the highway code demonstrated by the local delivery bods on their motor scooters.

 

[Alex321]

I felt anecdotally before this that driving standards were falling. Now I'm absolutely sure that this is the case. Is there any substantive evidence of this? I've done some searching and I get lots of hits about drivers eyesight, but nothing that's particularly evidential. KSI statistics have generally improved, vulnerable road users excepted. Compliance with speed limits has alledgedly improve, even though it's thought to only be around 50% drivers in free flowing traffic for 30 mph speed limits. I don't trust the data on motoring FPNs or convictions - various other factors can influence those.

The only "substantive evidence" (for what it is worth) is that, as you say KSI incidents are falling. How much of that is down to changing speed limits, new signage and other infrastructure changes is very hard to measure.

But it does tend to imply that driving standards aren't actually getting worse.

The issue is that you only notice a driver's standards when they do something wrong. But because those are all you notice, you then think it is much more common than it really is.

 

[slowmotion]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

Most drivers in Glasgow give me the feeling that they would sooner drive over me than wait 5 seconds but I noticed on a recent trip to London that drivers seemed well used with lots of different cyclists around them and not all behaving as expected.

Most London drivers realise that it's simply impractical to knock cyclists off. They simply don't need the aggravation of facing the consequences of doing so. Some of them cycle too, having realised that taking solo trips by car takes longer than riding a bike and that cycling is more fun.

 

[lazybloke]

I'm getting fed up with the demands for re-testing as no-one appears to have thought it through or, at least, don't explain their ideas.

What's wrong with demanding higher standards of driving?
I'd have happily retaken my driving tests after 20 years or so. But no, I've been driving 36 years already, and can do another 16 years before my current licence expires; and even then there's not really any hoops to jump through to renew my licence - I find that ridiculous.
Resting is an opportunity to check:
a) eyesight
b) reaction time
c) hazard perception
d) knowledge of the HC
e) driving ability
And since anyone being retested is by definition an experienced driver, I'd make the retests harder than the normal test.

Who's going to pay for all this re-testing?

The people being retested of course. Would you expect your periodic motor insurance renewal to be free? or your MoT, or your drivers licence? Or your passport?
Retests would also include a retinal scan for uniqueness; no more paying someone to take a test for you.

How many additional examiners will need to be employed to cover the tests, or do we just delay L-tests even more to accommodate them? Under the current system I would have to book my next year's test immediately after I take this year's - I'm almost 70. There is, however, an argument for the over-70's to have a proper medical and eye test before renewing their license every three years. This is common in the EU.

And there's the issue - insufficient capacity in the system. But charge people for retesting, and increase enforcement (particularly automated enforcement) and plough the money into adding capacity to a system that desperately needs more capacity.
Ramp up retesting gradually - I'd probably start with those who are caught flouting certain road traffic act offences, then consider age groupings.

In the sentence I have highlighted above, are you suggesting the people on their phones and eating/drinking are all older drivers? These are the things that older drivers tend not to do - they've been indoctrinated it's dangerous for decades - but the young definitely do as they have an inflated idea of their skills and capabilities.

Poor driving at any age should be addressed, no argument there.

I disagree that we can't do anything about the standard of driver behaviour (irrespective of age) but until government allocate sufficient funds to get more roads policing back on the streets we will have to plan accordingly, as you say. The new safety cameras will help but there will never be enough of them to be effective at anything except increasing the treasury coffers.

Speed and inattention are my biggest concerns on the road. Flood the roads with AI cameras that detect: the driver's face, instantaneous and average speed, tailgating, middle/fast lane hogging, red-light jumping, etc. Increase visibility of traffic police (another thing that could only be increased slowly).

Make it self-financing.

Also consider limitations on power, number of passengers that can be carried, permitted insurance groups, and even hours of day when driving is permitted. Have a sliding scale of what/when/how people can drive, not just focus on age.

There you go, lots of ways to manage various risks as presented by all ages of drivers.
God that was long-winded.

 

[steveindenmark]

There are rubbish drivers and there are rubbish cyclists. I would imagine that is because drivers do not choose to go on and get further training after they pass their test and cyclists get no training at all and think what they are doing is right and so they can never be wrong.

We just have to muddle along together. But there is no point apportioning blame. It does nobody any good.