HGV Posters In London

[4F]

For the record I'm not decidedly pro or anti HGVs in city centers, I interact with HGVs a great deal on the section of my commute that takes me on the A52 (although that's not a city center!) but that poster annoyed me as what seemed like another example of making cyclists take responsibility for other peoples bad driving like when cyclists get criticised for not wearing helmets and hi-vis after being killed on the road by a driver that wasn't looking.

But I think this is a subject worthy of debate.

Dondare's argument were clearly passionate and while I'm not sure I agree with it I wouldn't dismiss it as a big load of twaddle. It's food for thought.

Do we really NEED to have HGVs in our inner cities? Did I not hear earlier that there are cities that DON'T have HGVs driving about them, or at least the times they are allowed to drive around them are restricted, like Paris?

If HGVs are responsible (rather than just 'involved') in 30% of deaths on the road despite being only 3% of the vehicles, is not something worthy of debate?

No sorry twaddle is exactly what Dondare's post was. People need to be more aware of other road users, I loose count the amount of times I see car drivers cut in front of an HGV as they have left it until the last minute before making their turn off. Do these idiots not think that it takes more than 5 feet to stop a vehicle with a combined weight of 44 tonne.

The alleged "30% of deaths by 3% of road users" is an attention seeking headline and I have not seen anything in the transport press to back this up.

The transport industry has changed greatly over the years with over 7 pallet hub networks that I can think of ensuring that most HGV's you see on the road are full to capacity. If you then factor into this the double deck trailers that many companies have invested in to further utilse the full capacity the transport industry has been taking great leaps forward to minimise empty running and cut down on the vehicles on the road. It is of course ironic that the idiots in Brussels want to standardise the overall height throughout Europe to a maximum 4 metres which would make all the double deck trailers that soley run on the UK roads obselete. The Transport Minister and The Freight Transport association are quite rightly fighting this.

The rail system that we have over here is so old it struggles to cope with the Freightliner traffic that currently moves. As an example most trains that leave Felixstowe port are only 80% full as they have to leave to a pre-arranged network rail slot deadline. There are no other slots available and the system is running to 100%. Unless 100 of billions is spent on upgrading / adding new track rail will never be a realistic viable option to road.

 

[dondare]

http://www.crystal-claims.co.uk/Motorway-accidents/HGV-alarming-accident-statistics.html

So it's 8% of traffic rather than 3%. Still 30% of accidents which would indicate that these vehicles are simply not safe enough to be used on public roads. And they do cause a lot of damage, some accidental, some merely a function of their size and weight.
There is no immediate alternative. Lorries could be designed to be a great deal safer but that isn't going to happen because it'd cost too much. The railways aren't going to be expanded just to move freight. So let's go on pretending that it's the cyclist's fault for filtering (or using the cycle lane into the ASL box which puts them in exactly the same place) or the motorist's fault for not realizing that the lorry driver can't see something the size of a car if it's closer than ten feet ahead.

 

[SO8]

I haven't read most of the comments I admit .... but as a cyclist it is always sad to go to a collision involving a heavy and a cyclist as there is only one winner .... the HGV .... sadly my job is to go to these ... to deal with the results .... and find out what happened ....

Any advert that provokes discussion ... but hopefully stops cyclists getting hurt has got to be good !

In eight + years of dealing with collisions it is the ones involving cycles I always dread - often if the cyclist was more aware it would never have happened ...

 

[Rhythm Thief]

http://www.crystal-c...statistics.html

So it's 8% of traffic rather than 3%. Still 30% of accidents which would indicate that these vehicles are simply not safe enough to be used on public roads. And they do cause a lot of damage, some accidental, some merely a function of their size and weight.
There is no immediate alternative. Lorries could be designed to be a great deal safer but that isn't going to happen because it'd cost too much. The railways aren't going to be expanded just to move freight. So let's go on pretending that it's the cyclist's fault for filtering (or using the cycle lane into the ASL box which puts them in exactly the same place) or the motorist's fault for not realizing that the lorry driver can't see something the size of a car if it's closer than ten feet ahead.

It's not really about whose fault it is, that's pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is that we avoid flattening any more cyclists. If that can be achieved with an advert like this, aimed at cyclists like the one who undertook my lorry at traffic lights while I was indicating left (he was level with the trailer's landing legs when the lights changed, right in line to be squished by the back wheels), then that's a good thing.

 

[jimboalee]

Oh pooh.

I was going to sketch a little drawing of "The Corridor of Doom", but I went late night shopping.


( I'm determined to get this phrase to catch on )

 

[dondare]

It's not really about whose fault it is, that's pretty much irrelevant. The important thing is that we avoid flattening any more cyclists. If that can be achieved with an advert like this, aimed at cyclists like the one who undertook my lorry at traffic lights while I was indicating left (he was level with the trailer's landing legs when the lights changed, right in line to be squished by the back wheels), then that's a good thing.

Both times I've had really close calls it's been the lorry overtaking me then moving left. I probably was invisible to the driver but that's down to the design of the cab. Aside from what the driver can't see, they're just too large, heavy and unwieldy to be used safely in towns which still have streets laid out in the days of horse-drawn carts.
Cyclists do filter up the inside without realizing the danger. Motorists do slot in front of lorries on motorway slip roads. Peds still walk out into the roads without looking both ways and they all, always will. Roads are not a mechanism for removing careless, inexperienced or stupid people from the gene pool they're how we get around and obvious dangers should be removed. Even if there's no alternative right now lorries are wrong.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

They're all fair points, but my point still stands. If cyclists aren't up the inside of a truck at traffic lights, they won't get squashed by that truck. Granted, some lorry drivers pull up alongside cyclists at traffic lights, and maybe some education is needed there too, but I'm happy to see anything that might help prevent cyclist deaths around lorries. Which includes the advert in the OP.

 

[jimboalee]

And while we're close to the subject, watch out for non-articulated flat bed trucks with long rear overhangs.

Don't go up the outside of a Bendy Bus that's turning left.

 

[Peter10]

Both times I've had really close calls it's been the lorry overtaking me then moving left. I probably was invisible to the driver but that's down to the design of the cab. Aside from what the driver can't see, they're just too large, heavy and unwieldy to be used safely in towns which still have streets laid out in the days of horse-drawn carts.
Cyclists do filter up the inside without realizing the danger. Motorists do slot in front of lorries on motorway slip roads. Peds still walk out into the roads without looking both ways and they all, always will. Roads are not a mechanism for removing careless, inexperienced or stupid people from the gene pool they're how we get around and obvious dangers should be removed. Even if there's no alternative right now lorries are wrong.

If we took all HGV's off busy streets then there would be uproar as everything would costs a great deal more. Whether you like it or not, HGV's will stay on the road.

 

[Amanda P]

This is where that strange double standard comes in. When there's an airliner crash, or a train crash - or a terrorist attack - that kills a few dozen people, huge enquiries are held at vast expense and things changed so that that particular disaster can't happen again.

And yet around 300 people are killed on the UK's roads every year. No headlines, no enquiries, no uproar in the tabloids. It seems that when someone's killed by a motor vehicle, we just accept that as the price we pay for the convenience of motor transport.

Yes, goods might be more expensive or less easily available if only smaller lorries were allowed in city centres, or the hours during which they could enter city centres were limited. Maybe that'd be a price worth paying for not having people mown down by them?

I think it might be worth paying. The authorities of many European cities have decided it is worth paying.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

I'm not sure. The artic I used to take into London fairly regularly carried about the same as ten 7.5 tonners, or 40 or so Transit vans. That's a lot more potential for traffic chaos and incidents than a single artic ...

 

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

An example of a driver putting himself in an HGV blind spot -


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvEOWcLnHsE


Consequences deserved, you'd have to say.

 

[jimboalee]

I'm not sure. The artic I used to take into London fairly regularly carried about the same as ten 7.5 tonners, or 40 or so Transit vans. That's a lot more potential for traffic chaos and incidents than a single artic ...

What overtime/unsociable hours bonus would a driver expect for delivering in central London at 03:00 ?

Time + 1/2 ? or Double.

 

[Dan B]

My 2p: reverse the burden of proof in any accident involving a maneuvring HGV - require the driver to demonstrate he took all reasonable efforts to ensure nobody was in the space around him during his manoeuvre. He can do this with 360 degree camera coverage (better have that recorded too, for the courts) or by using a banksman outside the vehicle. Banksman will have the power to direct other road users (e.g. to prevent cyclists from undertaking during a left turn) or at least to advise them in the strongest possible terms of the risk they're taking if they persist in being reckless

 

[dondare]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...rry_Falls_Onto_Tracks_Injuring_Several_People