Heat pump experiences

[Tenkaykev]

That's interesting. The top one is a GSHP, as you'd expect, but it seems to be a purpose-built house of recent date with underfloor heating and a flow temperature below blood heat. We'd be trying to do it with a house where parts are 18th century, room-in-roof design, a very sub-optimal shape for heat losses (the footprint is like a lower case h) and a huge number of windows.

I'd be interested to know how many of the houses also have a log burner; you can comfortably keep most of the house at 16 degrees if your sitting area has a fire. In fact, in my current 3 bed house I ONLY use one log burner for heating if I'm in all day; the living room is about 22 deg C and other rooms are warm enough.

Selecting different view options via the left hand selection boxes brings up more data, and clicking on the " Summary " icon on the right hand side of a particular property brings up a further page of data. I've been looking at installations local to me, and with a similar profile ( mid terrace, 1950's build ). I stumbled across a " Visit a Heat Pump " website, some people have an " Open Day " where you can contact them and arrange a visit at a mutually agreeable time to discuss their experience with installation and running. There's a similar house to ours in Wareham having an open day in March, might contact them.

 

[mjr]

I'd be interested to know how many of the houses also have a log burner;

Surely it would be more interesting to know if the log burner is actually used? After all, we've got a log burner, which was needed to get a heat pump grant (stupid but that's often government grants for you), but I think it's not actually been lit (except for chimney testing) since the heat pump was installed. The 12p per kWh output (and even that is inside the burner, not per kWh emitted to the room) is far worse than the heat pump achieves.

 

[chris-suffolk]

The 12p per kWh output (and even that is inside the burner, not per kWh emitted to the room) is far worse than the heat pump achieves.

I guess the price is linked to what you pay for wood? So if that's free, then there's no 12p price tag.

 

[pubrunner]

The green energy sites are currently showing an ASHP as having slightly higher running costs than a gas boiler. Oil is cheaper still right now. A GSHP would be cheaper than gas but installation costs are huge even if you can do horizontal trenches. We have that option at the next house and will look into it but I think (a) it will still cost around £18k after the grant compared to about £3k for a new oil boiler and (b) the equipment will take up too much room in the house.

This ^^^ exactly describes the situation for me.

We have a 20 year old, oil boiler - we have it serviced every year and are always told that the baffles are in excellent condition. When it was last serviced, we were told that it was running at 93% efficiency. It is solidly built and all the parts are obtainable; we'll keep it going until we need to replace it.

What I like about having an oil boiler, is that we can usually work it so that we top it up when prices are lowest. During Covid, we managed to buy oil at 18p a litre -- a full tank for about £200.

When the existing boiler dies, we can buy a replacement for c. £3000. Or, we could spend 5 or 6 times that, for GSHP - I can't see any compelling reason for that.

A GSHP might be cheaper to run, but the difference in installation costs (c. £12,000-15,000) would buy many years of oil. And of course, we'd have to change all the radiators and pipes - not cheap. I'm not convinced either, that GSHP would work trouble-free for 20 years - as our existing oils boiler has managed to do.

 

[rogerzilla]

Biodiesel for home heating will hopefully be an option. BioLPG for heating, a byproduct of biodiesel production, is already easily available.

 

[Marchrider]

how environmentally sustainable is Biodiesel, do we have enough spare agricultural land and enough natural forestry to deforest - will there be room for any other creature on the planet than humans and edible farm animals

Biodiesel is not just magic'd out of thin air - wind an solar powering air source, is the answer - and stop flying here there and everywhere on aeroplanes - and anyone going anywhere on a plane is kidding themselves if they think they remotely care about the environment.

(this post will disappear very very quickly as the uber green cycling fraternity rather like their foreign holidays and this post will upset them)

 

[chris-suffolk]

A GSHP might be cheaper to run, but the difference in installation costs (c. £12,000-15,000) would buy many years of oil. And of course, we'd have to change all the radiators and pipes - not cheap. I'm not convinced either, that GSHP would work trouble-free for 20 years - as our existing oils boiler has managed to do.

This is exactly the issue, and the same with EVs too. Until, and unless, they cost the same (or maybe marginally more) than the technology they replace, people are not going to see them as a step forward. ASHP and GSHP and both less efficient at heating the average house in the UK, and they cost (much) more to install, so where's the incentive? Same with EVs, they cost to a fortune to buy on a like for like size basis, which I would argue for an average user eats massively into the daily running costs, and they are a backward step in terms of giving freedom of travel to the average user. Both electric powered heating and cars have a way to go before people will want to switch. Beating them with a big stick might work, but carrots are always better!!

 

[icowden]

To keep heat out in summer, the blinds or shutters really need to be on the outside. Once the sunlight is through the glass, it gets absorbed by internal blinds, heating them up, or reflected as longer wavelength IR (the literal greenhouse effect, nothing to do with its climate-related use) which also stays mostly in the house since it doesn't pass back through glass. It's still better to close curtains/blinds on hot sunny days than to leave them open, but it's only partially effective.

You mean those wooden shutters that you see on houses in warmer countries aren't just there to make the houses look pretty?

 

[welsh dragon]

There are quite a few people in the village who have had the lot curtesy of the government scheme, insulation everywhere, solar panels, heat pumps. Within 2 months they had the heat pumps taken out as they were so expensive to run and gave out so little heat that they just couldn't afford them.

They may be fine in brand new houses with tons of insulation but no thanks. Everyone who had them here have gone back to using their wood burners and just have the solar panels.

I read somewhere that the boss of one of the energy companies had a wood burner installed as the heat pump was rubbish and just didn't cut it.

 

[mjr]

We have a 20 year old, oil boiler - we have it serviced every year and are always told that the baffles are in excellent condition. When it was last serviced, we were told that it was running at 93% efficiency. It is solidly built and all the parts are obtainable; we'll keep it going until we need to replace it.

And that's usually fine. A good time to upgrade to ASHP is when the burner needs replacing anyway. As it approached 30 years old, our oil burner was being pieced back together like a jigsaw after each service. Spare parts no longer available. Installing a new oil burner would have needed building works and a lot of new pipework to bring it up to current regulations. After grant, it would have cost almost as much as the upgrade, cost more to run, been noisier and polluted the garden.

What I like about having an oil boiler, is that we can usually work it so that we top it up when prices are lowest. During Covid, we managed to buy oil at 18p a litre -- a full tank for about £200.

Yeah, we never got near that, even if we never had to buy near the top prices. Local suppliers won't deliver less than half a tank. There's also the worry of oil thefts or the tank leaking.

And of course, we'd have to change all the radiators and pipes - not cheap. I'm not convinced either, that GSHP would work trouble-free for 20 years - as our existing oils boiler has managed to do.

Why "of course"? It's possible but are your pipes and rads really that crap?

Heat pumps are a lot simpler and less stressed than something burning oil, so seem like they should be at least as reliable, as long as you con find a decent servicer, which is the main challenge for heat pumps at the moment, which government seems to be in denial about.

 

[mjr]

ASHP and GSHP and both less efficient at heating the average house in the UK, and they cost (much) more to install, so where's the incentive?

Less efficient than what? Gas heating is 80ish% efficient, ASHP is 320+% efficient.

The incentive should be reduced running costs, but it needs some taxes moving from electricity to gas for that to become clearer for more people.

 

[mjr]

There are quite a few people in the village who have had the lot curtesy of the government scheme, insulation everywhere, solar panels, heat pumps. Within 2 months they had the heat pumps taken out as they were so expensive to run and gave out so little heat that they just couldn't afford them.

What village was that, then? I'm surprised the fossil fuel companies haven't been highlighting that, although it sounds a bit like the Energy Companies Obligations (ECO) scheme, which I believe has often seen the wrong units and/or bad installations. That's different to the Boiler Upgrade Scheme which people usually talk about with heat pumps.

I read somewhere that the boss of one of the energy companies had a wood burner installed as the heat pump was rubbish and just didn't cut it.

And would that energy company be one that sells a lot of gas? And installs gas burners? 🤔

 

[icowden]

I watched one of those installation videos. The comment that concerned me was that "you can see the heat pump is working from the temperature in the room, but the radiators aren't belting out heat - you won't be drying your clothes on them that's for certain"

 

[chris-suffolk]

Less efficient than what? Gas heating is 80ish% efficient, ASHP is 320+% efficient.

The incentive should be reduced running costs, but it needs some taxes moving from electricity to gas for that to become clearer for more people.

When I said less efficient, I meant doesn't warm the average UK house properly, especially in a really cold snap, without the need for additional insulation and maybe a backup heat source when it's really cold (both needing yet more money to be spent). At -10deg C (as in Scotland not long back) ASHP are not really very good at keeping a house warm.

 

[mjr]

I watched one of those installation videos. The comment that concerned me was that "you can see the heat pump is working from the temperature in the room, but the radiators aren't belting out heat - you won't be drying your clothes on them that's for certain"

Sounds like a moron. You can dry clothes on the radiators if you want, but that remains a bad idea due to making the air damp if you do it too much, like in any house.