Heat pump experiences

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icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
Sounds like a moron. You can dry clothes on the radiators if you want, but that remains a bad idea due to making the air damp if you do it too much, like in any house.

This guy:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrnnuPEcW6I


At about 14:15. He says it's 10 degrees out but the radiators are stone cold to the touch (my radiators are running at 23 to 24 degrees). He does show a thermal camera pointed at the radiators.
 

chris-suffolk

Über Member
I assume the 'laugh' emoji means that you don't have a credible response.

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welsh dragon

Thanks but no thanks. I think I'll pass.
What village was that, then? I'm surprised the fossil fuel companies haven't been highlighting that, although it sounds a bit like the Energy Companies Obligations (ECO) scheme, which I believe has often seen the wrong units and/or bad installations. That's different to the Boiler Upgrade Scheme which people usually talk about with heat pumps.


And would that energy company be one that sells a lot of gas? And installs gas burners? 🤔



Sorry to disappoint anyone, but I'm not saying which one. And I have no Idea about anything else that particular company does. I haven't had it installed in my house.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
This guy:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrnnuPEcW6I


At about 14:15. He says it's 10 degrees out but the radiators are stone cold to the touch (my radiators are running at 23 to 24 degrees). He does show a thermal camera pointed at the radiators.

Ah, OK, not a moron, but an extremist. Yes, if you spend a year preparing the house and designing and installing a low-power heat pump to run very low temperature heating, you can heat your home with near-skin-temperature radiators, and it's great if you're targetting the HeatPumpMonitor leaderboard (he's currently in third place), but that's not going to work for most UK homes without their own live-in designer/installer. There are probably far more homes with random radiators shoved in to work with a 60-80°c system which accidentally are sufficient for a 30-50° typical heat pump system, where the radiators will be touch-warm when on.
 

chris-suffolk

Über Member
No, only that the wriggling is ridiculous but I don't have time to deal with that much wrong so few words right then. I'm sure you know that isn't what "less efficient" means in any reasonably widely-accepted use.

So, change less efficient to less effective (i.e it wont heat the average UK home adequately, which is all most people care about) - happy now?
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
So, change less efficient to less effective (i.e it wont heat the average UK home adequately, which is all most people care about) - happy now?
Not really because it's still completely false. I've no idea where these myths are coming from. Like this bit from your earlier post:

I meant doesn't warm the average UK house properly, especially in a really cold snap, without the need for additional insulation and maybe a backup heat source when it's really cold (both needing yet more money to be spent). At -10deg C (as in Scotland not long back) ASHP are not really very good at keeping a house warm.
-10 isn't average and I don't know what you think the average UK house is, but here's a plot of an ASHP in Scotland keeping a fairly large (heat demand of 26000+kWh/year) house warm at -10°C: https://emoncms.org/app/view?name=MyHeatpump&readkey=411554297c24d7c36cc5f8c6d55d37d7
It's using long bursts of 9.5kW output to do it, but that's a 10kW-rated unit so there's still a little slack even then, even though standard practice seems to be to optimise for -3°C not -10. If more heat is needed, more powerful ASHPs are available (14kW is pretty common).

Of course, more insulation will always make heating any house up cheaper, but that's the same no matter what your heat source is. A backup heat source may be a good idea for general resilience (as even a bottle-gas burner uses mains electric for its pumps and ignition), but again that's the same whatever the primary heating. Don't confuse government grant schemes sometimes requiring these good basic measures with heat pumps actually needing them to work.
 

pubrunner

Legendary Member
And that's usually fine. A good time to upgrade to ASHP is when the burner needs replacing anyway.
An ASHP would cost me 5 or 6 times more.

As it approached 30 years old, our oil burner was being pieced back together like a jigsaw after each service.

You must have had a complex oil burner, if it needed to be 'pieced back together like a jigsaw'.
You mention that your boiler 'approached 30 years old' - isn't that a persuasive reason to get another ? Are you confident that ASHP will last 30 years ?

Installing a new oil burner would have needed building works and a lot of new pipework to bring it up to current regulations. After grant, it would have cost almost as much as the upgrade, cost more to run, been noisier and polluted the garden.

Our plumber says that it would be a straight-forward job to install a new heat pump - certainly no need for new pipework.
are your pipes and rads really that crap?

Our pipes and rads are fine - for use with an oil boiler. Folks I know who have installed GSHP and ASHPs, have changed to larger radiators - an additional expense..

As mentioned by @chris-suffolk, GSHPs (& ASHPs) cost significantly more than Oil burners. Obviously, if I had a brand-new house and a new oil tank and plinth for it had to be installed, that would increase the price of an oil-burning system; however, it would still be much cheaper than installing a GSHP.
Heat pumps are a lot simpler and less stressed than something burning oil

If heat pumps are 'a lot simpler', why are they so much more expensive ?
 

Tenkaykev

Guru
Location
Poole
I have two air source heat pumps installed in my house, as do the majority of the population. They sit in my kitchen sipping electricity and keeping my food at about 8 degrees and my frozen food at about minus 18. They also add a gentle warmth to the kitchen as they reliably go about their job year after year.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Only from the motor. The heat from the condenser is just heat that leaked from the room into the appliance!
That seems a bit like saying that the cold displaced by an ASHP is just cold that leaked from the atmosphere into the house, doesn't it? Some of it may be, but that doesn't make moving it any less desirable.
 
We were talking about Heat Pumps yesterday

My wife's main objection if having to go back to the concept of a Hot Water tank
They are fine - but they do limnit you a lot.

Luckily - just as we were talking an article came on the telly about them and was showing a system.
They showed the hotwater tank.
Now she and I both grew up with them and I know how big the tank upstairs was here when I moved in
and the one shown on the telly was significantly smaller than the one I had removed here and the ones were remember from a while ago


Hence - you could not fill a bath from one tank
PLUS - as soon as you start running a bath then the tank start topping itself up with water - which is obviously cold
Hence the hot water you are using become cooler.
So if you are in the bath - and it is getting cold - then if you try to top it up with hot - it comes out as luke warm
and the heat pump does not have the thermal welly of a gas boiler and so will warm it up much slower


same would apply for a shower - I presume - if two people had one back to back and took their time

On top of which there is the "needing bigger radiators" problem
plus we have no idea how good the insulation is here but there are horror stories about the builders and insulation - from people who have lived her a very long time

so we won;t be heading in that direction without written guarantees
 

presta

Legendary Member
Are ASHPs hermetically sealed like fridges & freezers, or do they need re-gassing like a car aircon?

That seems a bit like saying that the cold displaced by an ASHP is just cold that leaked from the atmosphere into the house, doesn't it? Some of it may be, but that doesn't make moving it any less desirable.
The heat from a fridge condenser isn't contributing to heating the room because the heat pumped came from the room in the first place.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
An ASHP would cost me 5 or 6 times more.
Possible, but only if your current heating system is shoot.

You must have had a complex oil burner, if it needed to be 'pieced back together like a jigsaw'.
No, just old, with broken bits not available as spare parts any more. Apparently they could be stacked back into the case to make it work, but there was a risk that if they snapped too much more when taking them out during servicing, it may become impossible to stack them. It also made servicing take a bit longer and there was a minor risk that if it started taking too long then the firm would charge more.

You mention that your boiler 'approached 30 years old' - isn't that a persuasive reason to get another ? Are you confident that ASHP will last 30 years ?
Fairly confident it'll do similar because I've had other refrigeration units last longer, like @Tenkaykev mentions, and they work 24x7 all year, unlike the ASHP which only does 30 minutes a day for half the year. I also feel that we were fairly conservative with our ASHP selection, buying a Mitsubishi instead of one of the newer companies, because like so many here we had plenty of FUD about noise and reliability. (However, this wasn't without a drawback: it meant we ended up with an installer which was technically good, bordering on great, but apparently not so competent at business matters, now having gone into administration.)

It's also worth noting that the old burner stank, especially when we returned home after a holiday, and my asthma has improved since getting rid, so it probably wasn't working perfectly, although no servicer found anything wrong. It's only fair to note that a new oil burner sited where it would comply with the new regs would probably have also dealt with most of those problems, as there would be a more airtight door between it and the living spaces.

Our plumber says that it would be a straight-forward job to install a new heat pump - certainly no need for new pipework.
So how would it end up costing 5 or 6 times more?

Our pipes and rads are fine - for use with an oil boiler. Folks I know who have installed GSHP and ASHPs, have changed to larger radiators - an additional expense..
That varies from house to house. It's not always needed if the previous heating system was a condensing boiler actually running at a temperature where it can condense efficiently, such as the 50°c recommended during the recent energy crisis, but some people decide to change them anyway because they're getting the plumbers in and the system drained anyway and bigger radiators mean lower temperatures mean lower running costs. We had most radiators replaced because some were rusting out, but it was mainly the living room and kitchen ones that were made larger: the kitchen had been extended and I suspect the person doing it guessed what radiator sizes and got it wrong because it was always a bit cold in there, despite having the boiler glowing away.

As mentioned by @chris-suffolk, GSHPs (& ASHPs) cost significantly more than Oil burners. Obviously, if I had a brand-new house and a new oil tank and plinth for it had to be installed, that would increase the price of an oil-burning system; however, it would still be much cheaper than installing a GSHP.
I can't make the numbers add up for a GSHP retrofit, where you have a much higher installation cost and lower running costs. They probably only work out financially in new builds, where the groundwork kit is on site anyway, and in suitable ground.

If heat pumps are 'a lot simpler', why are they so much more expensive ?
ASHPs are not much dearer like-for-like (avoid comparing dumb timeswitch+thermostat burners with a modern heating system that gets rid of ever going "oh it's a bit cold, let's blast the heating"), but there are still economies of scale and fewer good installers, plus the costs of putting right mistakes made by housing developers (like installing basic insulation, or replacing tiny radiators that have to be run too hot to allow condensing burners to condense with appropriately-sized ones) seem to get blamed on heat pumps. Those are other things that Ofgem or the housing regulators really ought to be tackling, instead of throwing braindead grants at the problem and ignoring that some cowboys then just put their prices up by the maximum grant amount.
 

presta

Legendary Member
They showed the hotwater tank.
Now she and I both grew up with them and I know how big the tank upstairs was here when I moved in
and the one shown on the telly was significantly smaller than the one I had removed here and the ones were remember from a while ago

Are you sure? I've just seen the Channel 5 programme about heat pumps, and the tanks on there were so large they go from floor to ceiling. That's my problem, I have a convenient place to build an airing cupboard, but it's not that tall.
 
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